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Vengeance (tanking mastery)

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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Halnoth » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:50 pm

Halnoth wrote:I think what everyone is forgetting here is Blizzards goal of removing most if not all of the % increase talents. All of you guys are putting this into WotLK terms. We may need this AP buff if they take all of our +dmg abilities away.

Think about it, no more expertise from talents, no more +dmg and crit talents from ret, and no more 1h weapon specialization.


Quoting again for emphasis /end thread
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Thels » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:41 am

Tricks/MD don't work at all with the idea of "Bring the player, not the class." and should diaf.

I'm in a 10 man guild. We have no rogues, and one hunter that's certainly not at 100% attendance. Therefor I have to work with no tricks/md. Still, most of the raid is 264 geared, practically all the melee picked up Shadow's Edge in 25 man pugs, etc... (For that matter, I'm pretty much 264 geared myself, except for some nice 245 items like the armor sword, rings, etc...)

I make do, but I do have to ask people to use their CD's, and ordering the rets to use their salvation on my call. But if I compare it to say an ICC25 pug. If I tank for example Keleseth, I barely have to touch him while running after those blue balls, and the hunters and rogues can just MD me the moment they jump on the boss and keep my threat up. That just feels weird.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby yappo » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:22 am

There's something funny with Vengeance, as it might end up making avodance a BAD THING for a tank. Worst case scenario I have an "unlucky" string of hits and my tanking-target hits air for ten seconds straight, after which it promptly proceeds to eat the raid for breakfast.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:27 am

yappo wrote:There's something funny with Vengeance, as it might end up making avodance a BAD THING for a tank. Worst case scenario I have an "unlucky" string of hits and my tanking-target hits air for ten seconds straight, after which it promptly proceeds to eat the raid for breakfast.
That is what Cataclysm Radiance is for! Without parry and defense contributing to miss and more dodge, it really shouldn't be a problem, but then I thought they had it figured out with the diminishing return mechanic for WotLK, which was not sufficient.

Yes, I know that they claim gear inflation brought on by adding heroic level loot caused it, they are also entirely full of shit.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby chinoquezada » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:04 pm

Fridmarr wrote:That is what Cataclysm Radiance is for!


BC brought us: Sunwell Radiance
WotLK brought us: Chill of the Throne

Cataclysm will bring us: Deathwing's "Burning Sensation"
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Argali » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:39 pm

With only miss and dodge being pure avoidance, and parry being 50% DR for the next 2 hits, even if Blizz messes up, AGAIN, and you have about 10% miss, 30% dodge(sounds about right since I personally have about 60% pure avoidance pre-Icecrown Radiance), at t17, the chance of you not getting hit at all in 10 secs with a 2.4s attack speed is 0.02%.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:02 pm

Argali wrote:With only miss and dodge being pure avoidance, and parry being 50% DR for the next 2 hits, even if Blizz messes up, AGAIN, and you have about 10% miss, 30% dodge(sounds about right since I personally have about 60% pure avoidance pre-Icecrown Radiance), at t17, the chance of you not getting hit at all in 10 secs with a 2.4s attack speed is 0.02%.

And as I said, Defense is gone as well so only 5% to miss, plus no more defense contribution to your dodge. I don't think it'll be a problem, but I felt the need to jab.

chinoquezada, if it burns you may want to have it checked out.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby yappo » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:03 am

Fridmarr wrote:And as I said, Defense is gone as well so only 5% to miss, plus no more defense contribution to your dodge. I don't think it'll be a problem, but I felt the need to jab.


*grin* It just doesn't sit well with me to have a threat mechanism with an engine that scales inversly with gear. Even though it in all likelyhood won't be a pain for progression content. However if they want us to run outdated five-mans to collect emblems of whatever, then tanks risk remembering mana/rage -problems from WotLK with nostalgic bliss...
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:00 am

chinoquezada wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:That is what Cataclysm Radiance is for!


BC brought us: Sunwell Radiance
WotLK brought us: Chill of the Throne

Cataclysm will bring us: Deathwing's "Burning Sensation"

Y'know they have a cream for that.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:08 am

yappo wrote:*grin* It just doesn't sit well with me to have a threat mechanism with an engine that scales inversly with gear. Even though it in all likelyhood won't be a pain for progression content. However if they want us to run outdated five-mans to collect emblems of whatever, then tanks risk remembering mana/rage -problems from WotLK with nostalgic bliss...

Vengeance doesn't scale inversely with gear.

Ramp up time increases slightly with increased avoidance, but the effect is small, because you're capped once you take double your health in damage. This is not going to take long - maybe 20 seconds, maximum. In ICC-hard, more like 5 seconds. After that, you sit at max Vengeance for the fight.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby hoho » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:36 am

Also consider that when you back to 5-mans with your raid gear your non-vengeanced DPS will be higher thanks to better DPS stats on your tank gear too so it shouldn't really matter much.
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby yappo » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:59 am

knaughty wrote:Ramp up time increases slightly with increased avoidance, but the effect is small, because you're capped once you take double your health in damage. This is not going to take long - maybe 20 seconds, maximum. In ICC-hard, more like 5 seconds. After that, you sit at max Vengeance for the fight.


Ah, ok, didn't see this. I was afraid it worked dynamically (which would have made Fester impossible, so of course it couldn't be the way I imagined).
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Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:28 pm

It will remain to be seen how fast it will ramp up in practice with reduced tank damage in Cataclysm.

I'm unsure they'll actually be able to go with their idea of "Tanks take regular smaller hits" idea. That's what they said they'd be doing in ICC, didn't happen. Vengeance will ramp to full inside your 3 second fixate half the damn time in ICC-hard modes.

Come cataclysm, it should take 10-20 seconds, if they get damage & healing correct.

Anecdote from our PP-25-hard mode attempts last night: We're trying to use a feral druid in hybrid cat/bear spec gear to soak the first two disease stacks in P3. Last night, said druid was dead 1.1 seconds after start of P3. Taunt -> 33k hit -> 1.1 secs -> 33k hit -> dead. Mostly his fault for not pre-popping CDs but anyway...

:roll:

Uh-huh.... "smaller hits" eh? 33k on a 1 sec swing timer. What was the non-Icecrown radiance version?
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