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Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Paxen » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:32 pm

Kihra wrote:Nope, 25 heroic. As for it being healer failure, well, absolutely. In fact I'd argue that pretty much any whittle-down death in current content can be attributed to healer failure. The point of stacking armor, therefore, is to hope you do enough to survive 1-2 more hits... enough time for the healers to get over their fail and get back to healing you again. :)


Hmm, I haven't done this fight on heroic (if our server, Tarren Mill-EU, hadn't repeatedly crashed each night the last few weeks I should have seen it on 10 man at least), but shouldn't you have more than one healer on you?

Anyway, I can see that armor is quite a bit better than stam against this kind of situation. Would be nice if it was possible to calculate the break point in healing recieved for when a certain amount of armor is equally valuable to an amount of stam.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Kihra » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:48 pm

Paxen wrote:
Kihra wrote:Nope, 25 heroic. As for it being healer failure, well, absolutely. In fact I'd argue that pretty much any whittle-down death in current content can be attributed to healer failure. The point of stacking armor, therefore, is to hope you do enough to survive 1-2 more hits... enough time for the healers to get over their fail and get back to healing you again. :)


Hmm, I haven't done this fight on heroic (if our server, Tarren Mill-EU, hadn't repeatedly crashed each night the last few weeks I should have seen it on 10 man at least), but shouldn't you have more than one healer on you?

Anyway, I can see that armor is quite a bit better than stam against this kind of situation. Would be nice if it was possible to calculate the break point in healing recieved for when a certain amount of armor is equally valuable to an amount of stam.


Yes, normally I would have more than one healer on me, but having to collapse onto spores (in heroic you can't miss a spore and expect to live unless you have something like bubble or dispersion to save you) and having to dodge malleable goo can compromise healer throughput.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Awyndel » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:00 am

The break point between certain trinkets can easily be calculated by adding the healing received to the health value. Correct me if I'm wrong. Obviously things like less stressed out healers cannot be calculated :p .
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Ragingsoul » Sat May 01, 2010 9:21 am

I have a question.
It came to me today, on our ICC10 HC run where I'm tanking. I recently had to change from tank to dps mainspec for 25men.

How does the scaling affect us, with expertise/hit vs the dpsers, that always land their hits?

Since the dps aim is to be hit caped, and can never be dodged since their aim is also to be expertise caped, they have a 100% hit chance on the boss in theory, when we don't have 100% chance to land hits.
In the case where both would be 100% chance to hit, then 15% increase dmg for dps or tanks would be the same, but does it change if we don't have those percentage?

In other words, in a 3min fight, has expertise change its value, regarding the miss of 1 gcd to make threat vs the tiny more threat overall if using more strength?

before you answer " no it's the same, threat hasn't change etc etc" keep in mind that I'm not asking for our threat overall, of what we can potentially have over a fight, I'm asking regarding if 1 gcd miss with the dpsers never missing is more of a loss over a 3min fight, meaning the tiny more threat overall can't cover the threat loss of parries?

If we speak in terms of percentage of active fighting, a dps can in theory, have 100% uptime of the Strength of Wrynn buff, since he isn't missing, if we only can land 90% of our attacks, then we only benefit from this buff 90% of the time. Hard to explain, but it's something I thought about seeing druids almost at the expertise hard cap without trying, when plate tanks have fewer options regarding it.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Meloree » Sat May 01, 2010 1:15 pm

Ragingsoul wrote:How does the scaling affect us, with expertise/hit vs the dpsers, that always land their hits?

In other words, in a 3min fight, has expertise change its value, regarding the miss of 1 gcd to make threat vs the tiny more threat overall if using more strength?


If you do 10k tps without the buff, you do 11.5k tps with 15% warsong. It doesn't matter how much you hit or miss (so long as it's consistent between not-buff and buff), you've scaled by 15% because everything that does connect hits 15% harder. Misses/parries/dodges are still disproportionately more important early in a fight, so if snap threat is your problem, those stats will still be very important for you - but by exactly the same amount as before.

The relative stat weights don't change, because they all scale by exactly 15% with the buff.

As far as I understand, the buff affects all DPS flatly. There's no buff double-dipping by fury warriors/ret paladins with deep wounds and righteous vengeance, like at Valkyr Twins. The buff hasn't changed the relative value of stats for DPS, either. Those classes that need to be hitcapped are hitcapped, and those that don't (are feral cats the only dps class that doesn't care about hit/expertise very much?) aren't.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Loras » Sun May 02, 2010 6:46 am

Meloree wrote:If you do 10k tps without the buff, you do 11.5k tps with 15% warsong.

Won't our threat multipliers give us bigger increase in tps? If 1 dps is 1x 1.8x 1.43 tps (I might be wrong with numbers), then the tps would increase more, or?
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Ragingsoul » Sun May 02, 2010 8:31 am

Meloree wrote:Misses/parries/dodges are still disproportionately more important early in a fight, so if snap threat is your problem, those stats will still be very important for you - but by exactly the same amount as before.

The relative stat weights don't change, because they all scale by exactly 15% with the buff.


yeah, I know stats are the same, but I think it's the feeling when you miss something at a critical moment like you stated that made me wounder.


Loras wrote:Won't our threat multipliers give us bigger increase in tps? If 1 dps is 1x 1.8x 1.43 tps (I might be wrong with numbers), then the tps would increase more, or?

you made me question myself for a moment there.

yeah, the increase in threat is 10% more with 10% more dmg, but it goes the same way with threat reduction abilities for dpsers.

if 1 dps makes 1x 1.8x 1.43=2.574 tps per point of dmg,
10% more dmg, makes it 1.1x1.8x1.43= 2.8314 tps per point of dmg
2.574x1.1=2.8314 so it's also a 10% increase on the threat


I'm not really familiar with the reduction from dspers, but let's take 30% reduction from your dmg.
1dps would make 1x0.7=0.7 tps per point of dmg
1.1 dps would make 1.1x0.7=0.770 tps per point of dmg
and 0.7x1.1=0.77 so 10% increase too.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby hoho » Tue May 04, 2010 6:15 am

Meloree wrote:As far as I understand, the buff affects all DPS flatly. There's no buff double-dipping by fury warriors/ret paladins with deep wounds and righteous vengeance, like at Valkyr Twins.
Except that if a warrior is rage-starved then they do get further benefit from the buff due to getting more rage from damage done.

At least that's what I've understood from all the spam I've seen on forums, not really sure if it's true or not
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Meloree » Tue May 04, 2010 10:43 am

hoho wrote:
Meloree wrote:As far as I understand, the buff affects all DPS flatly. There's no buff double-dipping by fury warriors/ret paladins with deep wounds and righteous vengeance, like at Valkyr Twins.
Except that if a warrior is rage-starved then they do get further benefit from the buff due to getting more rage from damage done.

At least that's what I've understood from all the spam I've seen on forums, not really sure if it's true or not


The relevant clause is "if a warrior is rage-starved". Warriors appropriately geared for ICC aren't ever really rage starved. With or without the 15% buff, the next white hit, MH or OH, still gets them a boatload of rage, enough to get their rotation running again.

I'll grant, though, that my statement doesn't apply across all levels of play. Massively undergeared fury warriors stepping into ICC may see large performance deltas if they had insufficient rage to convert enough MH swings into HSs without the buff. This gear level doesn't last very long while running ICC.

However, the original point still stands, in regards to threat. Because the type of fury warrior who sees better than 15% scaling was never a threat problem in the first place. Any fury warrior with threat issues is scaling linearly.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby lythac » Wed May 05, 2010 3:33 am

This would affect classes that have bonus +threat tacked on to abilities as that won't get multiplied? Maul is listed on wowwiki as having +422 bonus threat and that portion of the threat shouldn't be changed by Wrynn/Hellscream buff. Not sure how many +threat (as opposed to *threat) still exist and if it is still the case with Maul.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby hoho » Wed May 05, 2010 3:43 am

Meloree wrote:The relevant clause is "if a warrior is rage-starved". Warriors appropriately geared for ICC aren't ever really rage starved.
Looking at top DPS warriors I still see them doing quite a few regular white swings instead of HS. The two at #1 Marrowgar and saurfang both have almost as many regular white swings as heroic strikes. Does that mean they are rage-starved or that they aren't simply spamming their buttons fast enough?

As for maul, only things I could find was it causing extra damage, where can I see the extra threat values?
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby lythac » Wed May 05, 2010 3:56 am

hoho wrote:
Meloree wrote:The relevant clause is "if a warrior is rage-starved". Warriors appropriately geared for ICC aren't ever really rage starved.
Looking at top DPS warriors I still see them doing quite a few regular white swings instead of HS. The two at #1 Marrowgar and saurfang both have almost as many regular white swings as heroic strikes. Does that mean they are rage-starved or that they aren't simply spamming their buttons fast enough?

As for maul, only things I could find was it causing extra damage, where can I see the extra threat values?


Top warrior on Saurfang has 85 HS + 97 Melee, 3.7 MH 3.6 OH so doesn't seem to be missing too many HS Link.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Threat is where I got the extra threat value from. It is out of date now as includes bonus threat on Shield Slam which was removed last patch afaik.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby hoho » Wed May 05, 2010 4:06 am

lythac wrote:Top warrior on Saurfang has 85 HS + 97 Melee, 3.7 MH 3.6 OH so doesn't seem to be missing too many HS
My bad, forgot they dualwield.
lythac wrote:http://www.wowwiki.com/Threat is where I got the extra threat value from. It is out of date now as includes bonus threat on Shield Slam which was removed last patch afaik.
Yea, that page does seem quite old/inaccurate. It's even missing the whole 30% threat reduction spriests get from shadowform that got added in 3.0. Anyone happens to have some definite data about those static threat modifiers?
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby theckhd » Wed May 05, 2010 6:06 am

hoho wrote:
lythac wrote:http://www.wowwiki.com/Threat is where I got the extra threat value from. It is out of date now as includes bonus threat on Shield Slam which was removed last patch afaik.
Yea, that page does seem quite old/inaccurate. It's even missing the whole 30% threat reduction spriests get from shadowform that got added in 3.0. Anyone happens to have some definite data about those static threat modifiers?

Nope, other than that paladins don't have any. All of our threat scales with damage.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby kakashi » Wed May 12, 2010 5:15 am

I might have missed this, but during the initial calculations for Armour vs Stamina was the scaling of AD taken into consideration ? Should it be taken into consideration ?
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