Vindication Uptime

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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:18 am

tlitp wrote:
theckhd wrote:I also fixed one error I found: (...) Note that pph_soc and pph_sor as defined in the parryhaste module are scale factors. In other words, to get the proper value of pph_soc, you need pph*pph_soc.

They are scale factors in your version of the code, they aren't in mine. So much for our best efforts to match them. :lol:

Argh, did I miss that in one of the diffs?

It probably makes more sense to do it your way (like usual). I can go back and fix them up manually if you want, otherwise I'll wait till you send me your version of the parryhaste module so I can put them side by side and compare.
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby Kihra » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:33 am

tlitp wrote:
theckhd wrote:I also fixed one error I found: (...) Note that pph_soc and pph_sor as defined in the parryhaste module are scale factors. In other words, to get the proper value of pph_soc, you need pph*pph_soc.

They are scale factors in your version of the code, they aren't in mine. So much for our best efforts to match them. :lol:
But, yeah, the graph should come in handy for people that aren't especially fond of maths. I've forgotten to put a big TLDR in there - if you're concerned about Vindication's uptime, look at the weapon swing timer first, not at your hit rating.


Can you elaborate on why swing speed matters? I thought Vindication was 8 PPM for the melee attacks.
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby Kihra » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:37 am

Xenix wrote:One major annoyance I've discovered is that you can only refresh/overwrite your own Vindication, not someone else's. This means that if mine drops off (say, on LK), and the ret paladin put his up then has to run out of melee, I don't get a chance to start reapplying it until his has already dropped off. That means depending on where I am in the rotation and where my ability GCD's are relative to his could result in a fairly large downtime compared to a theoretical one.


This is false.

Code: Select all
[22:13:45.317] Deathbringer Saurfang afflicted by Vindication from Kihra
[22:13:47.694] Deathbringer Saurfang's Vindication is refreshed by Kihra
[22:13:48.501] Deathbringer Saurfang's Vindication fades
[22:13:48.501] Deathbringer Saurfang afflicted by Vindication from Wiingman
[22:13:51.822] Deathbringer Saurfang's Vindication fades
[22:13:51.822] Deathbringer Saurfang afflicted by Vindication from Kihra


That's a snippet of us overwriting one another's Vindications every 3 seconds.
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:13 pm

Kihra wrote:Can you elaborate on why swing speed matters? I thought Vindication was 8 PPM for the melee attacks.

PPM enchants and abilities work by calculating a "proc chance" based on your auto-attack speed.

Example: You use a 1.3-speed weapon and are interested in a 1 PPM effect like Mongoose. The game calculates your chance to proc the effect on any given attack as:
p1 = 1.3/60 = 2.17%

Note that 60/1.3 = 46 is the number of auto-attacks you make in a one-minute period.

The game then rolls the dice using this proc chance for any successful proc trigger. In other words, every successful melee attack, HotR, ShoR, Judgement, and so on (provided all of those are proc triggers, obviously). Each of those has a 2.17% chance to proc your 1 PPM effect. Note that your hasted weapon speed is irrelevant - it's "not haste-normalized," so even if haste effects bring your observed swing speed down to 1 second, you'll still keep the same 2.17% proc chance.

Now let's say you equip a 3.0-speed weapon. Your proc chance goes up to
p2= 3.0/60 = 5%

Now you have a 5% chance to proc on every melee, HotR, ShoR, Judgement, etc.

The difference in auto-attacks shouldn't be noticeable, as you make fewer of them with a slower weapon. With just auto-attacks, you'd expect to see about 1 PPM with either weapon. But because of all the extra triggers from GCD-based abilities, you'll noticed a much higher proc-rate and uptime.

In short, you're casting the same number of GCD-limited abilities that proc the effect, but the proc rate just got considerably higher when you equipped a slower weapon.

To do this for an 8 ppm enchant, you'd simply multiply by 8. So p would go from:
p1 = 8*1.3/60 = 17.3%
to
p2 = 8*3.0/60 = 40%
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby Kihra » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:51 pm

theckhd wrote:
Kihra wrote:Can you elaborate on why swing speed matters? I thought Vindication was 8 PPM for the melee attacks.

PPM enchants and abilities work by calculating a "proc chance" based on your auto-attack speed.

Example: You use a 1.3-speed weapon and are interested in a 1 PPM effect like Mongoose. The game calculates your chance to proc the effect on any given attack as:
p1 = 1.3/60 = 2.17%

Note that 60/1.3 = 46 is the number of auto-attacks you make in a one-minute period.

The game then rolls the dice using this proc chance for any successful proc trigger. In other words, every successful melee attack, HotR, ShoR, Judgement, and so on (provided all of those are proc triggers, obviously). Each of those has a 2.17% chance to proc your 1 PPM effect. Note that your hasted weapon speed is irrelevant - it's "not haste-normalized," so even if haste effects bring your observed swing speed down to 1 second, you'll still keep the same 2.17% proc chance.

Now let's say you equip a 3.0-speed weapon. Your proc chance goes up to
p2= 3.0/60 = 5%

Now you have a 5% chance to proc on every melee, HotR, ShoR, Judgement, etc.

The difference in auto-attacks shouldn't be noticeable, as you make fewer of them with a slower weapon. With just auto-attacks, you'd expect to see about 1 PPM with either weapon. But because of all the extra triggers from GCD-based abilities, you'll noticed a much higher proc-rate and uptime.

In short, you're casting the same number of GCD-limited abilities that proc the effect, but the proc rate just got considerably higher when you equipped a slower weapon.

To do this for an 8 ppm enchant, you'd simply multiply by 8. So p would go from:
p1 = 8*1.3/60 = 17.3%
to
p2 = 8*3.0/60 = 40%


Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize the melee specials like HotR and SoR would use the same proc chance as normal melee attacks. I assume that has been verified? Given that Avenger's Shield seems to have its own unique proc chance (100%), I wasn't sure that HotR and SoR would necessarily match the normal melee proc chance.

What weapon speed did your graph assume then? It looks like you had a Vindication uptime of 90% or so worst-case. My admittedly anecdotal experience with a normal fast tanking weapon is that it's more like 85%.
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby Kihra » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:56 pm

As a side note, am I the only one who thinks the 277 Bloodvenom Blade is better than all the 277 tanking weapons? :) Slow speed for more Vindication uptime, high Agility that supplies armor and dodge, a blue socket that you can drop a Stamina gem in. I'm having a hard time getting excited about any 277 tanking weapon when compared with the Bloodvenom Blade. It's just better. :)
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:13 pm

Kihra wrote:Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize the melee specials like HotR and SoR would use the same proc chance as normal melee attacks. I assume that has been verified? Given that Avenger's Shield seems to have its own unique proc chance (100%), I wasn't sure that HotR and SoR would necessarily match the normal melee proc chance.

Well, no, to be fair it hasn't been verified for each ability. As you noted, AS seems to behave differently. tlitp and I have recently been focusing our attention on Vindication, BW/Mongoose, and other PPM effects in the MATLAB thread for precisely this reason. We noticed that there were a lot of assumptions going into our models of these effects and not a lot of hard data.

For example, to determine whether ShoR uses the PPM proc rate or a different one, we'd need a parse of a few hundred ShoR casts (no other abilities) so we have enough data to make a statistically significant determination. Unfortunately, both he and I are busy and don't have time to take that sort of data ourselves. We've outlined some tests we'd like run so that the community can help contribute.

Kihra wrote:What weapon speed did your graph assume then? It looks like you had a Vindication uptime of 90% or so worst-case. My admittedly anecdotal experience with a normal fast tanking weapon is that it's more like 85%.

It was a 1.7-speed weapon (Bonebreaker Scepter) with hit rating from gear set to 0 and expertise fixed at 26. And again, the 1% Draenei racial was included. If you drop the racial, it drops to around 88% uptime. I don't think you'd be able to pin it down better than about +/-5% from parses anyway since the sample sizes are small and there's always movement and latency to consider.

Kihra wrote:As a side note, am I the only one who thinks the 277 Bloodvenom Blade is better than all the 277 tanking weapons? :) Slow speed for more Vindication uptime, high Agility that supplies armor and dodge, a blue socket that you can drop a Stamina gem in. I'm having a hard time getting excited about any 277 tanking weapon when compared with the Bloodvenom Blade. It's just better. :)

I don't know, I'm enjoying my Last Word a lot. Not as slow as Bloodvenom, but the proc is quite nifty. Then again, I only picked up the 264 Bloodvenom last night, so I haven't had a lot of time to play with it yet.
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby Kihra » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:51 pm

theckhd wrote:
Kihra wrote:As a side note, am I the only one who thinks the 277 Bloodvenom Blade is better than all the 277 tanking weapons? :) Slow speed for more Vindication uptime, high Agility that supplies armor and dodge, a blue socket that you can drop a Stamina gem in. I'm having a hard time getting excited about any 277 tanking weapon when compared with the Bloodvenom Blade. It's just better. :)

I don't know, I'm enjoying my Last Word a lot. Not as slow as Bloodvenom, but the proc is quite nifty. Then again, I only picked up the 264 Bloodvenom last night, so I haven't had a lot of time to play with it yet.


I just can't get excited about Last Word. Bloodvenom does better threat and Crusader's Glory (for the kinds of deaths I experience) is better mitigation. I'm just not dying to "trickle-down" deaths where healing comes into play. The worst EH-based tank deaths I've experienced are 2-hit kills from Heroic Saurfang 25, and it's a 1.2 second burst death with no healing involved. With the 5% health buff this week, I'm not even worried about EH at all now.

Last Word seems like a decent weapon, but it isn't really best at anything.
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby tlitp » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:06 pm

HotR+Vindication can be covered by #1.
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby Awyndel » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:15 pm

Sorry but I just have to ask:

What about judgement of the just uptime?

Been looking through some logs and it seems like when our dk tank is present there is no problem since he refreshes his diseases anyway. I asume a warrior and a druid don't have any uptime issues with these either. But when I am alone on a target, like let's say the LK or w/e, I don't nearly have 100% uptime. I asume this is because of judgement and not being hit/expertise capped as well. And yes this asumes a proper 969 rotation.
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby jere » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:48 am

Something related to Vindication uptime:

How does reckoning change the results? I run 3/5 right now (mostly for heroics), but I wonder how much that increases the possible uptime if I don't have much hit. Something to consider.
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby Morendin » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:49 am

Vindication is 8 PPM


If you're like me and wondering what changed and why we suddenly are seeing significant V downtimes, that's it right there. Specifically, the SoV-application-no-longer-triggers-procs bugfix/nerf in 3.3.2 cut our effective PPM by nearly 50%.

EDIT
To clarify, the actual PPM is the same, but without getting a proc-chance every melee/HotR with the application/refresh of the HV stack our final proc-chance-derived-from-weaponspeed*proc-attempts/minute has dropped dramatically

PS

Reckoning will have a minimal effect on V uptime in a boss tanking situation, as its own uptime is quite low against a 2.4 attack speed enemy, and still unreliable on 1.2-1.8 bosses
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:03 am

I'm kind of curious how this changes the viability of slow dps weapons as a complete replacement for tanking weapons.

Slow weapons have higher Vindication uptime.
Slow weapons have higher Mongoose uptime (I assume, thought it could proc from other things than autoattack)
Slow weapons produce slightly less parry haste (Sindragosa relevant only)
Slow weapons have much higher threat.

With higher Vindication/Mongoose uptime slow weapons might very well be equivalent to tanking weapons, it would be nice to have a definitive comparison of all effects of weapon speed, since the survival opportunity cost might be even lower than assumed so far. (Though I'm aware you still need dataz)
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby Melathys » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:14 am

I've always tried to stay around 200 hit rating anyway (plus I'm draenei)
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Re: Vindication Uptime

Postby æ » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:18 pm

Code: Select all
[00:37:11.764] Deathbringer Saurfang afflicted by Vindication  from Kihra
[00:37:12.271] Wiingman Vindication Deathbringer Saurfang Miss
[00:37:16.584] Wiingman Vindication Deathbringer Saurfang Miss
[00:37:17.052] Wiingman Vindication Deathbringer Saurfang Miss
[00:37:17.507] Kihra Vindication Deathbringer Saurfang Miss
[00:37:21.780] Deathbringer Saurfang's Vindication fades
[00:37:24.618] Kihra Vindication Deathbringer Saurfang Miss
[00:37:37.851] Deathbringer Saurfang afflicted by Vindication from Wiingman


I didn't realize thats how buffs are traded off. I'd think it would be enough to just say 'Vindication refreshed by X' rather than it dropping off and applying. But maybe thats just hard coded into Wow from ages past?

5 misses in a row between two paladins. Thats pretty unlikely.
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