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Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

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Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby Auralius » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:21 pm

So recently, like just within the last week or so, I've noticed a serious issue with my threat in comparison to the DK I co-tank with. His threat has been steadily increasing as we gear up, but mine has been steadily decreasing. It's gotten to the point where our DK tank is just ripping everything off me, like I can't even compete. He's putting out a sustained 9k TPS, spiking at 12k if he gets a long series of rune strikes. I used to be pushing 8k sustained with spikes around 10-11k. Today in ICC I was only able to pull 6k sustained and spiked around 8k for short bursts. I refreshed Righteous fury several times to see if that was a problem, but it didn't change much. Anyone have any ideas of what could be attributing to nearly a 2k/sec drop in TPS? It's very frustrating when I pull a Bone Giant in the first hall and in 3 seconds I've lost threat to the DK with no hope of getting it back. (Bone Giant mobs are taunt immune for those who don't know) Marrowgar is just ridiculous, if I pop wings on the pull I can get a decent enough lead to hold onto him until the first bonestorm, after that I just can't compete with his numbers.

Before anyone asks:
My armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Auralius
Summary of Stats:
I sit at 6.68% hit + Draenei Buff (making it 7.68%) and am above the expertise soft cap at 32 expertise w/ Glyph of SoV. My major glyphs are SoV, Avenger's Shield and Divine Plea. Minor glyphs are Sense Undead, LoH cooldown reduction and BoK(cause theres crap available for minor choices)

The DK tank is 2H blood, hit rating's about equal to mine but with less expertise.

I follow the 9696... rotation very well, substituting glyphed avenger's shield for every 3rd Judgement. I eat Strength food and have 18 points in Ret up to and including Crusade.
Yes I have Righteous Fury on, no the other tank isn't being fed Tricks and/or Misdirects.

Even if tonight was a fluke and my all time low 6k TPS isn't going to continue(I hope), I still pull slightly inferior numbers to the DK on a regular basis. Besides picking up my 2 piece T10, which I plan to do soon, does anyone have any suggestions for ways I could increase my threat output?
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby Metherlance » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:10 am

Auralius wrote:It's very frustrating when I pull a Bone Giant in the first hall and in 3 seconds I've lost threat to the DK with no hope of getting it back. (Bone Giant mobs are taunt immune for those who don't know) Marrowgar is just ridiculous, if I pop wings on the pull I can get a decent enough lead to hold onto him until the first bonestorm, after that I just can't compete with his numbers.


Kinda-OT:
The Deathbound Wards have strange way of threat generation, the saber lash seems to give OT great deal of threat. Couple lucky RS crits there and he will rip it off for sure. Even without trying I have pulled those off from our other tanks.

For trash, in general, DK's make insane amount of threat if they have couple mobs hitting them, since they can use RS, even with radiance, instead of ~every white hit.

For Marrowgar, if the DK get first hit after Bonestorm and it's/followed by a RS crit, you can bet you can't get it off him if he is not holding back. On our 25m HC kill yesterday, our hunters seemed to sleep and got no MD's, nor tricks, after Bonestorm, and once the DK pulled it off from me and couldn't get it back no matter what I did.

Does this happen on any other bosses, for example on Saurfang? I wouldn't worry too much about Marrowgar, nor trash, nor those Deathbound Wards.
/Kinda-OT

About the TPS drop, did you have your usual buffs? Could be that DK's scale better, so you without some important buff/s could make a difference. Check that you have Sense Undead on (wouldn't count for that much, but for something), other than that beats me. :?

Haven't noticed anything myself.
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby PsiVen » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:10 am

IIRC there are certain DK tank builds that generate significantly higher threat than others. The stuff Metherlance mentioned is likely the big culprit, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was still generating higher threat in general. Just be sure that it doesn't cause problems, i.e. if he has to hold back not to pull off you when not supposed to, he should be doing that.
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby Meloree » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:24 am

Auralius wrote:So recently, like just within the last week or so, I've noticed a serious issue with my threat in comparison to the DK I co-tank with. His threat has been steadily increasing as we gear up, but mine has been steadily decreasing. It's gotten to the point where our DK tank is just ripping everything off me, like I can't even compete. He's putting out a sustained 9k TPS, spiking at 12k if he gets a long series of rune strikes. I used to be pushing 8k sustained with spikes around 10-11k. Today in ICC I was only able to pull 6k sustained and spiked around 8k for short bursts. I refreshed Righteous fury several times to see if that was a problem, but it didn't change much.

I follow the 9696... rotation very well, substituting glyphed avenger's shield for every 3rd Judgement. I eat Strength food and have 18 points in Ret up to and including Crusade.
Yes I have Righteous Fury on, no the other tank isn't being fed Tricks and/or Misdirects.

Even if tonight was a fluke and my all time low 6k TPS isn't going to continue(I hope), I still pull slightly inferior numbers to the DK on a regular basis. Besides picking up my 2 piece T10, which I plan to do soon, does anyone have any suggestions for ways I could increase my threat output?


I'm going to do the same thing as I always do for these threads: ask to see a parse - or preferably parses. I have had the occassional pull where something seems to have gone horribly wrong with threat - I suspect there's still some minor bugs with RF, but I can't prove it - but refreshing RF generally makes the problems go away. And 8k sustained TPS is low, let alone 6k, especially given how much hit you're running. With less hit, less ap, less exp, and a lower ilvl (faster) weapon, I pull significantly higher threat numbers than that during time on target. I suspect issues with your 969 rotation, honestly.

The most common issue people have with 969 is not executing it in order, it's insufficient advance key spammage. A "well run" 969 should have ability usage at 96-97% of theoretical during time on target, and I suspect that if you provide a parse, we'll find that your usage isn't that high. I'm sorry to be blunt, but until a parse proves it's not you... it's you.
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby Wrathy » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:50 am

Meloree wrote:And 8k sustained TPS is low, let alone 6k, especially given how much hit you're running. With less hit, less ap, less exp, and a lower ilvl (faster) weapon, I pull significantly higher threat numbers than that during time on target. I suspect issues with your 969 rotation, honestly.


I am going to have to agree with Meloree on this one, 8k is low, 6k is asleep at the wheel. In my full effective health set, with a 1.6 weapon speed weapon, I usually pull 9k plus at any given time. In my threat set on any lower spire or non counter boss, I usually sustain 12k. If you can provide us with a parse, it may help. Also if your DK counter part is Dardanos (just skimming your guild roster), then he is well over hit cap and 9 points from expertise hard cap. He is gearing for threat and not survival. If you had similar numbers, and you are performing your rotation correctly, he couldn't pull off you at all if you establish initial aggro.

It is curious that you are losing aggro to a dk. If he establishes initial aggro, and Rune Strike is able to be spammed, that is one thing, but he can not activate his RS with out being attacked, so he is pulling off you simply with his BS/HS/DS strikes. That leads me to believe something is wrong with your rotation.
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby Dynaeus » Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:12 pm

Your armory link gives me an error! Prolly because this tread is two months old. However, my suggestion would be to pick up a threat weapon and put Accuracy on it. There's like 4+ to pick from. They make a big difference (with or without reckoning points). There's a chart on here that ranks DPS and tank weapons by their TPS. Get one!
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby Pewsy » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:14 am

Is your fellow DK the IT-happy type ? IT has a pretty filthy threat multiplier now, just compare the ratio TPS/DPS he's pulling. If there something aberrant there (i e way over the frost presence multiplier), you have your answer :roll:
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:32 am

Pewsy wrote:Is your fellow DK the IT-happy type ? IT has a pretty filthy threat multiplier now, just compare the ratio TPS/DPS he's pulling. If there something aberrant there (i e way over the frost presence multiplier), you have your answer :roll:


Two month old thread, pre-IT buff.
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby Pewsy » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:54 am

Oops didn't notice the topic resurrection -_-'
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby Dendrah » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:02 am

Pewsy wrote:Is your fellow DK the IT-happy type ? IT has a pretty filthy threat multiplier now, just compare the ratio TPS/DPS he's pulling. If there something aberrant there (i e way over the frost presence multiplier), you have your answer :roll:


This is what I saw last weeks on my co-tank. He's a frost DK. IT is just so OP. I do more DPS but less TPS. HE's an alt for fun ICC-10 runs so I'm not really worried.
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby Pewsy » Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:57 am

Yes my guild is trying H Arthas 25 for now -55% yay-, we don't even have a tanking DK in the roster.
Is it so undervalued now ?
I remember it used to be OP in early WOTLK...
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby Kelaan » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:05 pm

Pewsy wrote:Yes my guild is trying H Arthas 25 for now -55% yay-, we don't even have a tanking DK in the roster.
Is it so undervalued now ?
I remember it used to be OP in ealry WOTLK...


It's fantastic for Deathwhisper.

Get death runes galore, taunt, pop DPS cooldowns if you have them (Maybe I'll get DRW? lol ...), and then IT x 4. It's not a good long term solution but it gets you a bunch of frontloaded threat before you start getting the %TPS debuff stacked too high.
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby mdrjr » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:59 am

Ok, I never posted here, but huge fan, always read the forum, you guys made me a good tankadin! Congrats!

As a tankadin I did saw those problems.

Seems to be a bug somewhere, I did a server/race change to join a new guild and I saw my TPS drop.

No ideia why. I was a human pally with 10% hit (very high), 34expertise and changed to Blood Elf.

I used to pull around 9~10k and peaks of 14~15k. Now I can barely pull 8k.


I still use the same 2 macros that I used before (They aren't saved on my toon's specific macros).

I tryed to: re-spec and refreshing RF during fights. Nothing.

So, some nerf?

PS: I also notice a small increase on my DPS (not TPS).
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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby cds4850 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:58 pm

mdrjr wrote:Ok, I never posted here, but huge fan, always read the forum, you guys made me a good tankadin! Congrats!

As a tankadin I did saw those problems.

Seems to be a bug somewhere, I did a server/race change to join a new guild and I saw my TPS drop.

No ideia why. I was a human pally with 10% hit (very high), 34expertise and changed to Blood Elf.

I used to pull around 9~10k and peaks of 14~15k. Now I can barely pull 8k.


I still use the same 2 macros that I used before (They aren't saved on my toon's specific macros).

I tryed to: re-spec and refreshing RF during fights. Nothing.

So, some nerf?

PS: I also notice a small increase on my DPS (not TPS).
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You're exactly right, there was very likely a stealth nerf. No need to post any parses from either your current raids or previous raids, as we have assuredly hit the nail on the head here.

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Re: Threat Issues(Recent) & Tips for Improvement

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:26 am

cds4850 wrote:You're exactly right, there was very likely a stealth nerf. No need to post any parses from either your current raids or previous raids, as we have assuredly hit the nail on the head here.

Welcome to the boards "good tankadin."

That's a bit harsh, let's dial down the sarcasm a bit.


mdrjr: Without a parse to look at, it's impossible to determine the cause of your problem. It's almost certainly not a stealth nerf. Most of the time, it's something as simple as not receiving a Misdirect or TotT like you usually do. Since you're unaware of the absence, you feel like you're performing worse than usual despite doing everything the same.

But in any event, we can't tell you without some sort of parse to analyze.
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