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Opinions on Consecration

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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby inthedrops » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:05 pm

All I know is I hate when other tank classes complain about how consecrate is overpowered. As someone said above, I don't think they ever really tank anything challenging with a paladin. I have a warrior and a paladin tank and I LOVE thunderclap mostly for it's mobility. I don't feel like I'm chained down like I feel with consecrate.

Anyway, good spell. Real useful. But it's not ALL THAT.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:54 pm

Consecration's great advantage is that it's passive threat generation. Fire and forget. Situationally great, especially for building threat while you're say, blood sapped.

It's lousy for snap pickups. There's a reason I swapped to my warrior for S3D adds.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby knaughty » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:18 am

PsiVen wrote:I'm not convinced it was ever as powerful as you guys make it out to be

I remember Consecrate ticking for 300-400.

At level 70.

When DPS were doing what, 1.5k DPS?

IE: Consecrate was pretty much enough to hold aggro on it's own. Certainly, it was more than enough against AoE, and pretty much enough against even single target DPS.

I remember getting to 80, getting full raid-capable gear, and my Consecrate ticking for less than it did in Sunwell.

Everything else compensated, but paladins being the preeminent AE tanks died with Wrath. I'd put us pretty much last in practice, behind both rage-tanks and DKs. Then again, we've been first for most main tanking duties for ToGC and ICC, I'll settle for being "adequate" for trash.

To refute PsiVen: "Long term threat" and "AoE tanking" don't go together. Snap aggro is what matters, because the pack is dead in 10 seconds. I care not that once we get our stacks up that we'd be ahead. Dead trash doesn't need tanking....

Of course, the point is moot. Any tank can AE tank sufficiently well to hold (enough) of the trash off the trigger-happy DPS.

If there was a Wrath Hyjal Waves equivalent, I'd be putting all the other tanks in ahead of me. I'd go tank the boss.

Exception: Phase One LK. 3 ghoul + AS = win. Wrath + enrage = win. I always tank the adds if I'm present. Still need Tricks to get adds out of the melee scrum reliably, however.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby knaughty » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:23 am

fuzzygeek wrote:It's lousy for snap pickups. There's a reason I swapped to my warrior for S3D adds.

I did it on the pally - we still got US 46th 10-man kill (guild best ever result for any kill).

Fucking hard work, however.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby hoho » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:50 am

I was asked to tank our guild first 25-man +3drakes on my paladin aswell. It was rather horrible. Consecrate was completely useless on picking up the whelps as they just flew right over it and went after the healers. It was much easier to just spamtaunt off the highest threat healer than trying to pick stuff up with consecrate.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:43 am

knaughty wrote:Exception: Phase One LK. 3 ghoul + AS = win. Wrath + enrage = win. I always tank the adds if I'm present. Still need Tricks to get adds out of the melee scrum reliably, however.

To combat that problem, I generally have one melee designated as the ghoul "tank" (usually a ret or dps warrior), and they over-prioritize AoE skills on the ghoul spawn to make sure they pick them up. Then a RD + AS + Judgement at 10 yards usually picks at least 2 of the 3 up.

It's so much easier when you don't have a warr or ret paladin around though, as they just go straight for a healer and you can pick up all 3 without any trouble.


hoho wrote:I was asked to tank our guild first 25-man +3drakes on my paladin aswell. It was rather horrible. Consecrate was completely useless on picking up the whelps as they just flew right over it and went after the healers. It was much easier to just spamtaunt off the highest threat healer than trying to pick stuff up with consecrate.

I always ended up tanking blazes and whelps, because at the time we had the best ranged pick-up spells next to warriors (vigilance on MT + tauntspam was stupidly good for that role, but we had no warrior tanks). The trick to picking up the whelps with Consecrate was to make sure that you dropped it in the right place - underneath the portal but offset slightly towards the healers. That usually picked up the majority, and you could taunt/AS/Exorcism/Judge the few that snuck by.

What I would have given for Seal of Cleave on that fight though...
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:54 am

knaughty wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:It's lousy for snap pickups. There's a reason I swapped to my warrior for S3D adds.

I did it on the pally - we still got US 46th 10-man kill (guild best ever result for any kill).

Fucking hard work, however.


Oh, I did most of our 25M S3Ds on my paladin, but for the last month of just farming mounts I swapped to my warrior. In 10s I just stayed on my paladin; I don't recall 10M being very difficult, but we only bothered doing it a dozen times or so.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby Fivelives » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:54 pm

Consecration ticking for 3-400 at 70 was a lot different than consecration ticking for 3-400 at 80. I think it's probably in part due to aoe DPS getting a huge boost in Wrath. In BC I think most aoe topped out at around ~1k/tick, which consecration could easily handle*. Now we're not only looking at inflated damage (2k+ per tick), but also it's gotten a lot easier to stack haste without gimping other dps stats. So now instead of around 1k damage ticks per second, we're looking at around 2k damage ticks every .6-.7 seconds, compared to our un-hasted consecration ticking for ~400 every second.

*At least, I don't remember any mages spamming blizzard or hunters with volley in BC anyway. Locks were the aoe kings there, and a seed-spamming lock would pull off of consecration + holy shield pretty handily, about as handily as any of the aoe dps channels will now.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby Markoh » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:27 pm

He was referring to it being powerful in bc, which it was. I actually hated how overpowered it was in bc (thats what stuck us in our niche which we STILL cant fully get out of. If you geared correctly back in bc conc + holy shield + maybe ret aura if you were an extremist would be enough to hold agro even over seed spamming. KJ adds for example, avenger shield + conc and nothing took them off unless you got stunlocked by rogues.

I kind of dislike conc because as I was saying it used to be so good that if you bring anything up about paladins not being great at say snap aoe threat they just say "lol conc". In my opinion bears are probably the best for aoe threat at the moment, I just don't get how they get so much threat so fast and once they have that lead you are going to be hard pressed to get it back due to reflective dmg/threat. When we did Sarth 3d I used to tank the adds too, and just because you could do it doesnt mean you were the best fit for it. In that particular circumstance I believe dk's were probably tops due to being able to place their dnd, but that's a discussion for another time.

Really I feel that conc has become somewhat lackluster due to the fact that aoe threat over time does no good unless you have the snap aoe to get them on you and in the conc in the first place.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby Jedah » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:34 am

Since ICC came out, I've found that my warrior holds AoE threat from equally geared paladins quite well.

This is contrary to my experience in Naxx and Ulduar (TOC doesn't really count). In T7/T8 I could never steal threat on an AOE pack from a paladin, but now it seems the opposite is true.

I was doing ICC10 last night and I held literally every mob on the pulls before the Valkyr mini-boss. I believe there are 5 or 6 elites, plus a bunch of ghouls spawned and I nabbed them up too.

Has anyone else noticed this? Or was it more likely just a L2P issue with me in Naxx/Uld?
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby Soralin » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:37 pm

Since Naxx, paladin's (aoe) threat has been nerfed and warrior's revenge now hits like a truck and cleaves as well.

It's not surprising that you're noticing a difference.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby Candoric » Sat May 01, 2010 4:47 am

I usually have no problem by chaintaunting the loose ones with RD/Hand until I have the pack under firm control. I always saw us advantaged at AOE control seeing how everyone in my guild (including the other tanks) drones on about OP PALA AOE and the blue posts chime in on that - and seeing how I really have no issues I actually started to feel bad for warriors who "had to have it worse than us". Don't know what to feel now.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby Soralin » Sat May 01, 2010 5:15 am

The problem with that viewpoint is its heavily influenced by BC content for most people. You essentially REQUIRED a paladin tank for many parts of latter BC, because the other classes were inferioer for multi-mob tanking.

You need to look at a sample size that is current only... in which case you will find DKs, Druids, and Warriors have a significantly higher initial aoe threat (Death and Decay/Bloodboil, Swipe, Thunderclap/Shockwave) than paladins do (over the 3 (4 glyphed) target mark that HOTR can hit) Usually once they're on a paladin they stay there, but getting them to do that can be difficult when people are aoeing straightaway - or worse, when another tank performs their snap aoe threat move and rips them off you.

If Consecration was frontloaded a little more, I think it would do a better job - say 75% of its damage initially and 25% over the remaining time (or some similar proportion) - but that discussion has been had multiple times in multiple forums. Or alternately if Holy Wrath worked on all mobs and not just undead - you could stun them in consecrate to build initial aoe threat.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby knaughty » Sat May 01, 2010 4:24 pm

Soralin wrote:Or alternately if Holy Wrath worked on all mobs and not just undead - you could stun them in consecrate to build initial aoe threat.

Great combo, works well in ICC, would be nice if worked on everything.

It's still less threat that other tanks. EG: ICC plauguewing. I'll charge the pack in the "circle room" at the start of the wing while my bear is tanking the last abom. As the patrol comes round the corner, drop consecrate, as it hits the consecrate and bunches up on me, Holy Wrath. Start spamming.

2-3 secs later Mr Bear runs in and starts swipe spamming. A few seconds after that, mobs start peeling. If the pack lives long enough everything but my primary melee target will be on the bear. (He does re-glyph for trash).

I don't really see it as a problem that other tanks do more AoE TPS than us so long as we do enough to keep the magelocks alive.

I've respecced this week so I can try seal of cleave. I'll see how it goes.
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Re: Opinions on Consecration

Postby Treck » Sun May 02, 2010 7:13 am

As everyone else here is saying, people who call pallys OP on aoetanking cuz of consecrate, have no idea what they are talking about. HAMMER makes pallys faceroll in heroics, not consecrate, not even worth using in heroics since things die to fast anyway.
I also did suggest them to change Holy wrath, to work on all targets, but only stun Undead/deamons, back when ulduar was about to release.
Nowadays aoetanking means dropping consecrate so that it looks like your doing something, then having 3 rogues using tricks and letting you get all the aggro, if your actually trying to do anything or not, isnt noticable.
And back in BC we had 3 abilities in our "rotation" to even be able to be close to the others, a lot of the threat had to come from consecration, now when we got more abilities than GCDs (and dont have to sit around waiting for them to finish) its different.
1-2 targets, All classes do very good threat on both, druid with maul, warrs and revenge, pallys and hammer, Dks OP Icy touch :P (atleast as frost).
3-4 targets, Pallys, depending glyphed hammer or not, but everything hammer hits, will stick on you.
5-10 targets, Druids win, with DKs beeing able to compete somewhat atleast.
However as the mobs start growing in numbers, the dpsers will still reach you soon enough.
I dont remember if they changed it or where ive heard it, but ive heard that consecration doesnt have an aoecap.
But bears swipe has iirc. While DK diseases cant be capped since its a dot on all targets.
So say theres 50-100 mobs, id guess DKs/pallys would win then atleast if thats the case.
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