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Armor vs HP Math Help

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Roots » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:08 pm

He didn't come here to discuss/learn/convince. He came here with his personal ideal that says "armor>all. period" and never bothered reading any of the threads where people were /drooling over the bonus armor pieces. No, this was simply to pick a fight.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby lythac » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:50 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:
JamesVZ wrote:Can you survive two hits back to back from Festergut? Is it because of your stamina that this is possible, or because of your armor? My max hit the other day on Festergut was 25k, and I'm not sure I even had an armor pot popped. I've seen other parses with hits of well over 30k. Which tank would you rather have in front of him? I know which one I'd rather have.

There is no value whatsoever in just quoting how much damage different tanks take when you ignore other relevant factors - namely, the gear worn by the tanks used as examples and their maximum health values.

If you want to make this argument, show us parses of two tanks in similar gear but with armor trinkets versus stamina.


I think that not having an attack power debuff on the boss 100% could and would account for a 5k difference in some cases. Having a paladin tank or speced ret makes this a non issue.

If Thunderclap can fall off for you, then I'm sure Demo Shout can fall off for those that need to apply it and that turns a 25k hit into a 30k hit.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h6os ... 811&e=6089

[{"spellNames": ["Thunder Clap"], "actorNames": ["Jamesvz"]}, {"targetNames": ["Jamesvz"], "sourceNames": ["Festergut"]}]

Code: Select all
[20:32:41.488] Festergut's Thunder Clap fades
[20:32:41.531] Jamesvz casts Thunder Clap
[20:32:41.644] Festergut hits Jamesvz 16720 (B: 9460)
[20:32:41.871] Jamesvz Thunder Clap Festergut 1603
[20:32:41.871] Festergut afflicted by Thunder Clap from Jamesvz
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:41 pm

JamesVZ wrote:[What you are advocating is a perversion of that concept -- stack EH to stack EH. Somewhere you got this notion that you are far below where you need to be in some theoretical "TEH" level that is completely besides the point. You need enough effective health to survive a Worst Case Scenario, which is generally pretty easy to achieve, and then from there you stack armor/avoidance/block for damage reduction to make the fight that much easier.

No, I have advocated no such thing. I have not, at any point, advocated stacking stamina over armor for the sake of stacking stamina. I simply came up with a formula that tells you what gives you the maximum effective health against a burst event containing a mixture of damage types. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you read that post, and come away with the impression that I'm telling people to stack stamina at the expense of everything else, then either I didn't explain myself well enough, or you didn't care to read enough. And since many, many others seem to understand what I posted, I suspect that the fault lies in your corner.

The fact is that the Corroded Skeleton Key gives more EH than an armor trinket. There is no debating this, because the numbers are quite clear. Most of us have no trouble clearing the tank checks in current content, yourself included. There's nothing wrong with wearing an armor trinket for current content, but that doesn't mean it's going to be "better all around" for pushing progression content, which is what you continue to suggest.


JamesVZ wrote:Can you survive two hits back to back from Festergut? Is it because of your stamina that this is possible, or because of your armor? My max hit the other day on Festergut was 25k, and I'm not sure I even had an armor pot popped. I've seen other parses with hits of well over 30k. Which tank would you rather have in front of him? I know which one I'd rather have.

Yes, I can, and have survived back-to-back hits from Festergut. Because while you have 5k more armor, I have 4k more health than you do, and my 4k health also scales with Kings.

You're showing your own ignorance here. Surviving two back-to-back hits from Festergut is not a damage mitigation question, it's an effective health question. And we've been over that point before. We're both above the EH minimum for that fight, so using an armor trinket there is a perfectly reasonable way to reduce the load on your healers. But again, it's not going to be the max-EH option that you'd use for tanking progression content.

Some Other Guy wrote:Of course, this was all known since the dawn of raiding. We did it on Golemagg, Broodlord, Patchwerk, etc... This is where James's comment about tanks who have been doing it for 5+ years becomes relevant, because we've always known it. We knew it on Brutallus too, when we were gearing more avoidance since we had enough stamina and armor to live through his worst double hit + stomp.

Get enough EH to live through the worst case scenario, then work towards reducing the damage you take.


Just because I wasn't tanking when Golemagg was around doesn't mean I wasn't there. I raided MC, and I was familiar with the basics at the time, though from a healer's perspective.

And curiously enough, if you'd read any of my other posts in the numerous threads about "EH vs. Avoidance," you'd see that I give basically the same advice. Stack EH to survive the worst case, and then stack avoidance, armor, or whatever else to reduce damage intake and ease the load on your healers. In current content, I'd agree with you 100% that Armor is the best way to do that.

So I don't know why you or the person you quoted somehow think this is at odds with coming up with a formulation that gives you a more accurate way to determine what that worst case scenario is.

The ironic thing is that you and I agree on almost everything, I think we're just talking past one another. The only place we seem to disagree is on gearing to survive that maximum burst. You say it's Armor, I say it's by stacking effective health according to the damage types of the fight.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:07 pm

JamesVZ wrote:here's another post from another forum that sums the argument up pretty well:

... If a tank requires less HPS to keep alive, then the healer's attention can be spared elsewhere...


Um no.

Not at the levels of difference we're talking about, nor at the size of incoming hits we're talking about.

This looks very similar to the Divinity argument. When there is sufficient difference for the healer to cast a lesser heal instead of a greater one, or to skip a heal, then it would make a difference. In all other cases, the difference simply contributes to greater amounts of overhealing.

I have not seen any maths at all that demonstrate that the difference between an armour trinket and a stamina trinket would cause any healer to be able to reduce his heals or skip a heal.

Thus it is my opinion that the difference would simply end up as overhealing done and net no benefit to the encounter except to make the tank's "damage taken" figure at the end of the fight look cosmetically better.

So while I agree that a better-aroured tank would take less damage, I question whether it is expressed in any meaningful way.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Eminai » Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:28 pm

theckhd wrote:
JamesVZ wrote:[What you are advocating is a perversion of that concept -- stack EH to stack EH. Somewhere you got this notion that you are far below where you need to be in some theoretical "TEH" level that is completely besides the point. You need enough effective health to survive a Worst Case Scenario, which is generally pretty easy to achieve, and then from there you stack armor/avoidance/block for damage reduction to make the fight that much easier.

No, I have advocated no such thing. I have not, at any point, advocated stacking stamina over armor for the sake of stacking stamina. I simply came up with a formula that tells you what gives you the maximum effective health against a burst event containing a mixture of damage types. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you read that post, and come away with the impression that I'm telling people to stack stamina at the expense of everything else, then either I didn't explain myself well enough, or you didn't care to read enough. And since many, many others seem to understand what I posted, I suspect that the fault lies in your corner.

The fact is that the Corroded Skeleton Key gives more EH than an armor trinket. There is no debating this, because the numbers are quite clear. Most of us have no trouble clearing the tank checks in current content, yourself included. There's nothing wrong with wearing an armor trinket for current content, but that doesn't mean it's going to be "better all around" for pushing progression content, which is what you continue to suggest.


EH does not equal stamina, no matter how much you can't seem to get that simple concept through your head. EH is a worthless made up number that, as far as I can tell, tanks came up with because they couldn't epeen the DPS they got from recount the way DPS can. You might as well say the Corroded Skeleton Key gives you more gearscore for all the effectiveness that gives your ability to tank anything worthwhile.


theckhd wrote:
JamesVZ wrote:Can you survive two hits back to back from Festergut? Is it because of your stamina that this is possible, or because of your armor? My max hit the other day on Festergut was 25k, and I'm not sure I even had an armor pot popped. I've seen other parses with hits of well over 30k. Which tank would you rather have in front of him? I know which one I'd rather have.

Yes, I can, and have survived back-to-back hits from Festergut. Because while you have 5k more armor, I have 4k more health than you do, and my 4k health also scales with Kings.

You're showing your own ignorance here. Surviving two back-to-back hits from Festergut is not a damage mitigation question, it's an effective health question. And we've been over that point before. We're both above the EH minimum for that fight, so using an armor trinket there is a perfectly reasonable way to reduce the load on your healers. But again, it's not going to be the max-EH option that you'd use for tanking progression content.


So if it doesn't matter whether or not you can survive back to back Festergut hits, why did you feel the need to share that information with us?

theckhd wrote:
Some Other Guy wrote:Of course, this was all known since the dawn of raiding. We did it on Golemagg, Broodlord, Patchwerk, etc... This is where James's comment about tanks who have been doing it for 5+ years becomes relevant, because we've always known it. We knew it on Brutallus too, when we were gearing more avoidance since we had enough stamina and armor to live through his worst double hit + stomp.

Get enough EH to live through the worst case scenario, then work towards reducing the damage you take.


Just because I wasn't tanking when Golemagg was around doesn't mean I wasn't there. I raided MC, and I was familiar with the basics at the time, though from a healer's perspective.

And curiously enough, if you'd read any of my other posts in the numerous threads about "EH vs. Avoidance," you'd see that I give basically the same advice. Stack EH to survive the worst case, and then stack avoidance, armor, or whatever else to reduce damage intake and ease the load on your healers. In current content, I'd agree with you 100% that Armor is the best way to do that.

So I don't know why you or the person you quoted somehow think this is at odds with coming up with a formulation that gives you a more accurate way to determine what that worst case scenario is.

The ironic thing is that you and I agree on almost everything, I think we're just talking past one another. The only place we seem to disagree is on gearing to survive that maximum burst. You say it's Armor, I say it's by stacking effective health according to the damage types of the fight.


Choosing an answer that's is almost right is nothing like choosing the right answer, and your worst case scenario is laughable at best.

The quick, dirty guide to gearing a tanks is as follows: Get the ability to survive from one heal to the next, then maximize the value of the healing done to you. Unless you're getting shot down in under 0.2 seconds, you're surviving the amount of time it could potentially take for a heal to land. If your healers like to slack off or you just don't trust their competency, you could expand that window to up to a second. After that gear level, your first, last, and only priority in gearing is to maximize the value of the healing done to you. I honestly don't understand how this is too complex for you to understand.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby katraya » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:02 pm

Eminai wrote: I honestly don't understand how this is too complex for you to understand.



Ironic coming from one who can't understand why no one values your "I say it is true, therefore it is" logic.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:14 pm

Eminai wrote:
theckhd wrote:
JamesVZ wrote:[What you are advocating is a perversion of that concept -- stack EH to stack EH. Somewhere you got this notion that you are far below where you need to be in some theoretical "TEH" level that is completely besides the point. You need enough effective health to survive a Worst Case Scenario, which is generally pretty easy to achieve, and then from there you stack armor/avoidance/block for damage reduction to make the fight that much easier.

No, I have advocated no such thing. I have not, at any point, advocated stacking stamina over armor for the sake of stacking stamina. I simply came up with a formula that tells you what gives you the maximum effective health against a burst event containing a mixture of damage types. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you read that post, and come away with the impression that I'm telling people to stack stamina at the expense of everything else, then either I didn't explain myself well enough, or you didn't care to read enough. And since many, many others seem to understand what I posted, I suspect that the fault lies in your corner.

The fact is that the Corroded Skeleton Key gives more EH than an armor trinket. There is no debating this, because the numbers are quite clear. Most of us have no trouble clearing the tank checks in current content, yourself included. There's nothing wrong with wearing an armor trinket for current content, but that doesn't mean it's going to be "better all around" for pushing progression content, which is what you continue to suggest.


EH does not equal stamina, no matter how much you can't seem to get that simple concept through your head. EH is a worthless made up number that, as far as I can tell, tanks came up with because they couldn't epeen the DPS they got from recount the way DPS can. You might as well say the Corroded Skeleton Key gives you more gearscore for all the effectiveness that gives your ability to tank anything worthwhile.


theckhd wrote:
JamesVZ wrote:Can you survive two hits back to back from Festergut? Is it because of your stamina that this is possible, or because of your armor? My max hit the other day on Festergut was 25k, and I'm not sure I even had an armor pot popped. I've seen other parses with hits of well over 30k. Which tank would you rather have in front of him? I know which one I'd rather have.

Yes, I can, and have survived back-to-back hits from Festergut. Because while you have 5k more armor, I have 4k more health than you do, and my 4k health also scales with Kings.

You're showing your own ignorance here. Surviving two back-to-back hits from Festergut is not a damage mitigation question, it's an effective health question. And we've been over that point before. We're both above the EH minimum for that fight, so using an armor trinket there is a perfectly reasonable way to reduce the load on your healers. But again, it's not going to be the max-EH option that you'd use for tanking progression content.


So if it doesn't matter whether or not you can survive back to back Festergut hits, why did you feel the need to share that information with us?

theckhd wrote:
Some Other Guy wrote:Of course, this was all known since the dawn of raiding. We did it on Golemagg, Broodlord, Patchwerk, etc... This is where James's comment about tanks who have been doing it for 5+ years becomes relevant, because we've always known it. We knew it on Brutallus too, when we were gearing more avoidance since we had enough stamina and armor to live through his worst double hit + stomp.

Get enough EH to live through the worst case scenario, then work towards reducing the damage you take.


Just because I wasn't tanking when Golemagg was around doesn't mean I wasn't there. I raided MC, and I was familiar with the basics at the time, though from a healer's perspective.

And curiously enough, if you'd read any of my other posts in the numerous threads about "EH vs. Avoidance," you'd see that I give basically the same advice. Stack EH to survive the worst case, and then stack avoidance, armor, or whatever else to reduce damage intake and ease the load on your healers. In current content, I'd agree with you 100% that Armor is the best way to do that.

So I don't know why you or the person you quoted somehow think this is at odds with coming up with a formulation that gives you a more accurate way to determine what that worst case scenario is.

The ironic thing is that you and I agree on almost everything, I think we're just talking past one another. The only place we seem to disagree is on gearing to survive that maximum burst. You say it's Armor, I say it's by stacking effective health according to the damage types of the fight.


Choosing an answer that's is almost right is nothing like choosing the right answer, and your worst case scenario is laughable at best.

The quick, dirty guide to gearing a tanks is as follows: Get the ability to survive from one heal to the next, then maximize the value of the healing done to you. Unless you're getting shot down in under 0.2 seconds, you're surviving the amount of time it could potentially take for a heal to land. If your healers like to slack off or you just don't trust their competency, you could expand that window to up to a second. After that gear level, your first, last, and only priority in gearing is to maximize the value of the healing done to you. I honestly don't understand how this is too complex for you to understand.

No one has said EH = Stamina. Stamina and Armor are both part of EH, so the statement that "Armor > EH" doesn't make much sense, it's like saying Dodge > Avoidance. Stamina and Armor work together to increase your survivability. EH is a number that represents your survivability, in a nutshell it is the raw amount of damage that must be done to you in order to kill you. Armor mitigates raw damage, and health absorbs it, they work together. In fact armor makes your health scale very quickly, it's a great stat.

The question in the case of the trinket, is which one gives you more survivability (EH). The answer is that the Skeleton Key does, it's been mathematically proven.

Perhaps you should give this a read, http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 4513&sid=1
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Eminai » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:24 pm

katraya wrote:
Eminai wrote: I honestly don't understand how this is too complex for you to understand.



Ironic coming from one who can't understand why no one values your "I say it is true, therefore it is" logic.


Words woefully misused in this post: Two, out of a possible score of Eighteen.
Failure at English contained in this post: Moderate

In case you were wondering, the words you were misusing were "Ironic" and "logic". Since you appear to want to be spoon fed everything, the proper use of irony is when a phrase is used to define something opposite it's literal phrasing, as in "Theck's purchase of the stamina trinket rather that getting tier pieces or +armor offset pieces makes perfect sense, and I don't understand why anyone would do anything else." Irony can also indicate a series a difference in the way events turn out and the way you would expect them to. "Logic" is a procedure used to reach a conclusion, typically referring to deductive reasoning, however any formal reasoning can be included under the term of logic. Your misuse of the word ironic is part of a disturbingly common trend, where irony seems to be a blanket term for any adjective the speaker could possibly think of, probably due to the vagueness of the actual appropriate usage of irony. Your misuse of logic, however, points to a misunderstanding of everything I was trying to say. I was not providing a formal proof of my conclusions and the methods I used to reach them, I was simply informing interested parties that my conclusions were as stated.

Now that we have that out of the way, if you require more information on how I reached my conclusions, you are free to request it. You are even free to be generally caustic and abusive of me, as that is the tone with which I entered this discussion, and I would not have done so without being prepared for it to be used upon me. However, if you are going to continue to abuse the English language, do not expect me to take either you or anything you say seriously.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:33 pm

Eminai wrote:EH does not equal stamina, no matter how much you can't seem to get that simple concept through your head. EH is a worthless made up number that, as far as I can tell, tanks came up with because they couldn't epeen the DPS they got from recount the way DPS can. You might as well say the Corroded Skeleton Key gives you more gearscore for all the effectiveness that gives your ability to tank anything worthwhile.

1) Do you even know the definition of EH? Because stamina is a part of it, as is armor.
2) If you think that EH is a worthless stat, you're a worthless tank. Seriously. It is certainly not the end-all, be-all, one stat one must try and maximize. But then again, nobody ever said it was, including me.
3) There are several prominent theorycrafters who might disagree with your assessment of EH as worthless. Perhaps you sholud brush up on one of them.

Eminai wrote:So if it doesn't matter whether or not you can survive back to back Festergut hits, why did you feel the need to share that information with us?

Are you seriously this stupid? He asked the question, presumably to make the point that Armor is somehow "better" for this scenario. But he's wrong for a few reasons reasons.
1) Any time you are asking whether a tank can survive a burst scenario, you are asking "Does this tank have enough EH to survive this burst." I'm pointing out that we both have almost exactly the same EH (in fact, his is ahead by less than 0.5%), but I do it with mostly stamina right now, while he does it with armor. However, on any fight with a magical or bleed burst, I come out far ahead. And when I finally do manage to get the badges for the chest, gloves, and cloak, I'll be even farther ahead.
2) More pertinently, he would have higher Effective health with the stamina trinket than the armor trinket as well.
3) Is that irrelevant in current content? Probably. We're both above the EH threshold for the most demanding fight, which is unquestionably Festergut. But it will be very relevant once hard modes come out if there are any serious tank checks involved.


Eminai wrote:Choosing an answer that's is almost right is nothing like choosing the right answer, and your worst case scenario is laughable at best.

Wait, what? What does this even mean? My formula doesn't even describe a particular worst case, it's valid for all worst cases, including the ones from completely physical damage.

Eminai wrote:The quick, dirty guide to gearing a tanks is as follows: Get the ability to survive from one heal to the next, then maximize the value of the healing done to you. Unless you're getting shot down in under 0.2 seconds, you're surviving the amount of time it could potentially take for a heal to land. If your healers like to slack off or you just don't trust their competency, you could expand that window to up to a second. After that gear level, your first, last, and only priority in gearing is to maximize the value of the healing done to you. I honestly don't understand how this is too complex for you to understand.

I would suggest that without data, your conjecture is just that - conjecture. I understand what you're saying. My posts should be enough to prove that I'm a pretty smart guy. It's not comprehension that's lacking here. The simple fact is that you're incorrect.

In real situations, where real raid tanks die, they do not do so because they didn't maximize the healing done to them. They die because they take enough damage in a short period of time without heals to kill them. This is well established tanking theory here, at tankspot, at Elitist Jerks, and basically everywhere else.

If you're going to come in here and suggest that somehow, all of those people are completely wrong, and without providing anything to justify it other than "I said so," then you're wasting your time. Because I, and most of the other experienced tanks on this forum can see right through you to see that you don't know what you're talking about.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby lralexl » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:35 pm

Eminai wrote:
katraya wrote:
Eminai wrote: I honestly don't understand how this is too complex for you to understand.



Ironic coming from one who can't understand why no one values your "I say it is true, therefore it is" logic.


Words woefully misused in this post: Two, out of a possible score of Eighteen.
Failure at English contained in this post: Moderate

In case you were wondering, the words you were misusing were "Ironic" and "logic". Since you appear to want to be spoon fed everything, the proper use of irony is when a phrase is used to define something opposite it's literal phrasing, as in "Theck's purchase of the stamina trinket rather that getting tier pieces or +armor offset pieces makes perfect sense, and I don't understand why anyone would do anything else." Irony can also indicate a series a difference in the way events turn out and the way you would expect them to. "Logic" is a procedure used to reach a conclusion, typically referring to deductive reasoning, however any formal reasoning can be included under the term of logic. Your misuse of the word ironic is part of a disturbingly common trend, where irony seems to be a blanket term for any adjective the speaker could possibly think of, probably due to the vagueness of the actual appropriate usage of irony. Your misuse of logic, however, points to a misunderstanding of everything I was trying to say. I was not providing a formal proof of my conclusions and the methods I used to reach them, I was simply informing interested parties that my conclusions were as stated.

Now that we have that out of the way, if you require more information on how I reached my conclusions, you are free to request it. You are even free to be generally caustic and abusive of me, as that is the tone with which I entered this discussion, and I would not have done so without being prepared for it to be used upon me. However, if you are going to continue to abuse the English language, do not expect me to take either you or anything you say seriously.


From all the personal attacks against theck it seems that you're just jealous of his position of respect here and thus feel the need to "dethrone" him. Move along sir.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby bldavis » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:39 pm

Eminai wrote: if you require more information on how I reached my conclusions, you are free to request it.


I believe we have done just that, several times.

There are several posts requesting math to backup your theories, and I have yet to see a single example.
All it would take is a single example, and then we could have a meaningful discussion.

That is unless your sole purpose in posting here is to continue this flame war. Theckd has shown examples of how he came to his conclusions, and there are several threads dedicated to them. It is all there for the reading.

By the way, very artful dodging the issue in your last post, by pointing out some grammatical errors, in someone who might not speak English as a first language. All that does is make you look like an ass, as if you needed the help.

Please show us how you came to your conclusions.
A request was made, now will you fulfill your side of the bargin?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Mightymatt » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:52 pm

Hi, I rarely post but this thread got to me.Im not a very good tank. I just play to spend time with my son.I just want to point out that this game is a mathamatical construct and as such follows mathamatical principals.The people on this site always strive to prove what they are saying and for people like me it is a great help.I want to say thank you to all of you. You do great work and help the lesser players like me a lot.Theck you are a smart young man keep up the good work you have made me less crappy than i was :lol:
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Meloree » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:52 pm

Eminai wrote:The quick, dirty guide to gearing a tanks is as follows: Get the ability to survive from one heal to the next, then maximize the value of the healing done to you. Unless you're getting shot down in under 0.2 seconds, you're surviving the amount of time it could potentially take for a heal to land. If your healers like to slack off or you just don't trust their competency, you could expand that window to up to a second. After that gear level, your first, last, and only priority in gearing is to maximize the value of the healing done to you. I honestly don't understand how this is too complex for you to understand.


Hi. I bolded the relevant section. You're talking about gearing AFTER being able to survive worst-case burst. So is James. The post in question, the one that seems to offend you and James so much, tells you how to get to the position of surviving the worst-case burst most efficiently. Perhaps that makes the disconnect more clear.

The irony is that most of the posters here are quite fond of the armor gear, and agree that armor is an excellent stat, even beyond it's applicability to surviving worst-case burst. So you've both, rather antagonistically, attempted to argue about something that's taken for granted, by picking on a post that's not relevant to your argument.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Eminai » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:25 pm

bldavis wrote:
Eminai wrote:Please show us how you came to your conclusions.
A request was made, now will you fulfill your side of the bargin?


Gladly. Using http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mal%27Ganis&cn=Grim as the tank in question. For the purposes of this assumption, we shall assume his stats are exactly as shown in the armory, on a boss that hits for 25k on average, at his armor level, with a 1.5 second swing timer. Given those assumptions, he, at his gear level will require a heal of at least 4436 within 3 seconds of engaging the boss, and will then require 25k healing every 1.5 seconds, if we assume a worst case scenario.

If he had the armor trinket, instead of having 45564 health and 29613 armor he would have 43375 health and 31584 armor, which would reduce festergut's swings to roughly 24000 per swing, which would change the healing needed to 4625 within 3 seconds, followed by 24000 healing per 1.5 seconds. The benefits of this depend on how we view our worst case scenario. If we assume that a tank is going to have a streak of up to 15 seconds where he does not avoid or block a hit, using the armor trinket will reduce his total healing needed for one of those streaks by 7811 over 15 seconds, or 520 healing per second. In order for stamina to be more valuable than armor, we need to assume that the tank will never get hit more than three times in a row, otherwise he will actually require less healing by getting the armor trinket instead of regular juggernaut's vitality. Now, this is an unrealistic scenario that will never occur in a raid, because actually predicting everything that could happen to gib a tank in a raid would require more effort than I'm willing to put towards something I'm not getting paid for.

EDIT: Because this is the post with all the math in it, I'll address theck's "worst case scenario" using the example above. Assuming a 5 minute fight with the above damaging attacks, the tank with the armor trinket will require 659 less healing per second than the tank using the stamina trinket, for a total of nearly 200,000 less healing, assuming a true worst case scenario of a tank that never avoids a hit or blocks one.

Edited again to fix the URL
Last edited by Eminai on Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
theckhd wrote:Philosophically speaking, wiping your raid is slightly less serious than handing a baby off to the wrong set of parents.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby lralexl » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:31 pm

None of that included unmitigateable damage such as magic or bleeds..... taking 3 melee hits in a row is one thing, taking one melee, one bleed, and one magic damage is another. This is why stam is usually valued higher to tanks(such as me), it is universal. Finding the right balance of physical mitigation and universal mitigation is key to being a good tank. You can stack all the armor in the world(to the 49k cap), and still get 1 shot by the prince's empowered shadow lance(without nuclei)

Edit: By unmitigateable i mean physically. IE Armor doesn't reduce magic/bleeds.
Last edited by lralexl on Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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