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Armor vs HP Math Help

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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Melathys » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:29 pm

Kihra wrote:
Meloree wrote:And yet the statement still remains completely true.


Exactly. :)

AD is completely irrelevant to a discussion of armor vs. stamina equivalency.


in terms of armor vs stam, yes...however, this "discussion" devolved into survivability, and I wouldn't think you can discount AD in such a discussion.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Meloree » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:34 pm

theckhd wrote:As for the answer to this: I tend to use a 10:1 ratio for evaluating armor on items, because it's fast and easy to do in my head. 1823 armor? Great, that's basically 182 stamina. Done.

That values armor at between 85% and 90% of it's maximum value, which seems reasonable for a "general use" set that will be seeing lots of melee and the odd magic splash here or there.


I hate to disagree with you in this, of all threads, but I'm pretty sure that 10:1 is more like 110% to 115% of armors maximum value. Which, of course, is pretty fair, given that it does have damage reduction attached, so in general-use, I tend to weight it slightly higher than it's pure stamina value.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:39 pm

JamesVZ wrote:What if I shit rainbows out of my ass and I ride a Unicorn into work the next day? You just came up with the ultimate What If scenario and used that as part of your argument, like how does that make a lick of difference in any real world scenario? It doesn't.

Fair enough, it was a "what if" scenario that's not likely to happen. But the point is that you and I don't know what hard mode encounters will look like yet. There's no reason there couldn't be a tank-check encounter based around a large magic burst. We've seen it before with Sartharion and to a lesser extent with Malygos.

JamesVZ wrote:I like that you brought up all the magic and bleed damage on Northrend Beasts, because that's kind of what I want to talk about. My raid group is not exactly what you'd call cutting edge. In fact, we're precisely not cutting edge, and most of the time we suck a lot. We weren't able to tackle Northrend Beasts the first week it was out due to the DPS requirements of the fight. Tank deaths were solved in pretty short order because this is what I came up with:

None of us were dying to the bleed. In fact, the first week heroic modes were open our Paladin tank stacked it to 7, and on the 8th it killed her because it ticked for more than her life. The bleed is essentially non-dangerous. I've since then tanked it at 8, killed me at 9 due to the one hit tick. Tank deaths centered around Impale applications, and yes while the bleed may have contributed to tank deaths during that time it was pretty clearly the Impale application + melee swing combo that put you in serious danger.

You're completely missing the point. The fact that the bleed single-handedly won't kill you is irrelevant. If you can survive Melee+Impale, but you can't survive Melee+Impale+Bleed, then it's definitely dangerous and relevant.

JamesVZ wrote:None of us were dying to the spew. A two second channel for 20k total is pretty harmless all things considered. The 30k some odd enraged dreadscale hits lining up with the 15k bites, on the other hand, were pretty fuckin dangerous.

(P.S. I took considerably less because for the past few weeks we've been burning down Acidmaw and killing him right as Dreadscale goes under, thus circumventing the enraged effect).

And the 15k bites are magic damage. So a relevant, dangerous death scenario on the very first boss encounter of the instance contains a burst that's over 33% magical damage, and possibly more with stray bile ticks and Molten Spew.

Also, the two second channel hits you now for 20k because you have the DPS to cheese the enrage, but that's not how the encounter tends to go during progression. It hit that other tank for 36k, which means you're downplaying the danger of the spew, since it can be followed immediately by a bite just as easily as a melee can.


JamesVZ wrote:Do some more math: How much damage are you reducing by stacking armor on a fight like Northrend Beasts from every melee hit and every impale application? Figure it up at your what 37k armor with a pot up, and my 43 some odd k with a pot up. Then calculate how much damage reduction you get out of Stamina.

Except now you're talking about mitigating total damage intake over a boss fight. That's all well and good, but total damage intake over a boss fight does not kill a tank. Unless your healers are running out of mana, nobody gives a shit if you took 5% less damage from the boss' melee attacks. They care that you have enough effective health to survive the spike damage bursts that kill you and wipe the raid. That's measured by Effective Health, not total damage taken.

I'm not talking about anything new here. This is the same tank-gearing theory that's been used since classic. Stack EH to meet the fight's minimum, and then focus on avoidance/armor/whatever to reduce total damage taken.

The reason you seem to keep coming back to armor as the end-all, be-all is that you already outgear the available content, so you don't have to worry about the EH requirements. So great, you take less damage than I do on trivial content. Gratz to you. But smart tanks know that they probably aren't overgeared for the hard mode encounters we'll see in Icecrown, and they're planning accordingly.

And as far as our armories, you have 35.3k armor to my 29k. But you've already bought all 4 of the armor off-set items, and I've only bought one. That accounts for the entire difference outside of the armor trinket that I already showed to be sub-optimal. I noticed you didn't take issue with any of that math, either.

And the reason I haven't bought those yet is because none of the encounters so far have required those pieces, so I'm playing a wait-and-see game. They're all going to be part of my heroic-mode progression set, but the trinket is the second best EH trinket in the entire game for any given encounter, so it was an easy purchase to make, especially since I never picked up a 258 Satrina's.

The really telling part of your post is what you left unsaid. Despite me giving you very clear, straightforward examples of why your armor trinket is giving you less EH than the skeleton Key (or even your 192 Juggernaut's), you decided to write that off with an "I take less damage" argument that's inconsistent with tried-and-true tanking theory established four years ago.

And instead of admitting that there are magical bursts where armor doesn't help, you call them "irrelevant," only to follow with an example that contains 33%+ magical damage.

You're wrong. There's nothing else to it really. Armor is a great stat, but you're going to great extremes to try and justify stacking it where it's not the optimal choice.

If you want to keep dancing around taking pot shots at me, feel free. But I'm coming up with numbers and examples that match your "real world boss kills" criterion, and all you seem to be doing is sniping back with erroneous arguments.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:41 pm

Meloree wrote:
theckhd wrote:As for the answer to this: I tend to use a 10:1 ratio for evaluating armor on items, because it's fast and easy to do in my head. 1823 armor? Great, that's basically 182 stamina. Done.

That values armor at between 85% and 90% of it's maximum value, which seems reasonable for a "general use" set that will be seeing lots of melee and the odd magic splash here or there.


I hate to disagree with you in this, of all threads, but I'm pretty sure that 10:1 is more like 110% to 115% of armors maximum value. Which, of course, is pretty fair, given that it does have damage reduction attached, so in general-use, I tend to weight it slightly higher than it's pure stamina value.

Well shit. Of all the threads to make a division error in.

Still, that is the rule of thumb I tend to use. 10:1 for a physical fight, 20:1 for anything with significant magical burst. So even I value armor at higher than 100%, and it still falls behind stamina in the trinket department.

Either way, I'll go back and edit the post so it's correct.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Gavinas » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:44 pm

As best I can tell James' main point is that armor actually reduces damage taken as opposed to stamina only increasing the amount you can take before death. This does give armor an edge if your healers are unable to maintain sufficient throughput to keep you alive, however that rarely, if ever, seems to be the case in current content. In fact your example about being able to survive stacks of the impale bleed until it one shots you supports the idea that healers can maintain more than enough throughput to heal you through very large amounts of damage taken steadily over a period of time.

In this case you should be more interested in how much damage you can take in a short period of time without heals and still survive, i.e. burst. This is the whole point of the EH metric, it gives a way to compare the time to live increase given from a combination of armor and health between pieces.

One reasonable argument for valuing armor more highly even if it results in slightly less EH for a situation is that you could potentially use fewer tank healers since less healing throughput will be required. In particular this would give armor more of an edge over stamina in 10 mans by making them easier to 2 heal. In general though healing throughput hasn't seemed to be a huge concern in WOTLK so wearing the gear set with the highest TEH for the relevant tank-threatening burst is the way to go.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Torquemada » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:13 pm

In general, Gav, you're absolutely correct. The other circumstance that comes to mind that is not generally the case are those fights that are dps races where threat is actually a concern. Interestingly enough, the ones I can think off off the top of my head also have a lot of burst capable of one-shotting a tank(Holding threat on Malygos with multiple sparks down, surviving Hodir's frost damage as progression while the ranged are putting out ungodly dps, holding aggro/keeping mana up on Vez while the Warlocks are doing the best to wipe the raid by not holding back).

Most of us here already have multiple sets/pieces for situations where threat is optimal for an encounter, or for farm content. I merely think it's worth reiterating that by no means is the only answer to gear for survival all of the time. Which no one has actually said here, but in the event that we have someone new reading this thread, I want to make sure they keep that in mind.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Elsie » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:33 pm

I don't really have anything to add since everything was pretty much said 4 pages ago (or years ago if you want to extend the issue). I just wanted to tell Theckd he has far, far more patience than me.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:38 pm

theckhd wrote:I'm not talking about anything new here. This is the same tank-gearing theory that's been used since classic. Stack EH to meet the fight's minimum, and then focus on avoidance/armor/whatever to reduce total damage taken.


What you are advocating is a perversion of that concept -- stack EH to stack EH. Somewhere you got this notion that you are far below where you need to be in some theoretical "TEH" level that is completely besides the point. You need enough effective health to survive a Worst Case Scenario, which is generally pretty easy to achieve, and then from there you stack armor/avoidance/block for damage reduction to make the fight that much easier. Can you survive two hits back to back from Festergut? Is it because of your stamina that this is possible, or because of your armor? My max hit the other day on Festergut was 25k, and I'm not sure I even had an armor pot popped. I've seen other parses with hits of well over 30k. Which tank would you rather have in front of him? I know which one I'd rather have.

To leave you for the day, here's another post from another forum that sums the argument up pretty well:

Maybe I can add a bit of logical reasoning as to why Armor > Effective Heatlh. My apologies if this sounds condescending, but I'm imagining my audience being the maintankadin forums.

The biggest reason—and the one that escapes definition so often—as to why AC is better than EH when gearing is because of outside factors, which theck likes to conveniently ignore in his calculations. I don't think he even uses shield effects when calculating EH, when they effectively add to your HP.

Once you add Healing Per Second into the equation, everything changes. If a tank is able to live through the worst possible scenario, then as long as HPS > Damage Taken Per Second, EH is infinite. Plug in infinite into theck's equations and it all falls apart, but that's how it works in real scenarios. If you can keep your tank alive forever, then their total HP could be 40,000 or 400,000, it wouldn't matter; the tank is still alive.

But why stop there, we're min/maxers. So what's left to min/max? Minimize required HPS. It's as close a measurement we can get to the "ease" with which a healer can keep a tank alive. If a tank requires less HPS to keep alive, then the healer's attention can be spared elsewhere. XI-'s point in the 3.3 thread about healers mashing a heal every GCD preventing them from doing interesting things could be changed if the HPS required to keep a tank alive is lowered. Suddenly a tank healer could throw in some cooldowns, use a channeled mana regeneration spell or keep non-tanks alive. Just tank low level dungeons at their appropriate level to know what this is like. It's generally a lot more fun. When shit hits the fan, you can actually make effective use of your abilities to save the group. If you're required to spam heals on the tank the entire time just to keep them alive, then when something goes wrong, you're just going to wipe. Adding more EH to infinite EH doesn't decrease HPS, but AC does. So in real raid scenarios, AC > EH as long as you have enough EH to live through the worst case scenario. It's the only way to make it "easier" to heal the tank.

Of course, this was all known since the dawn of raiding. We did it on Golemagg, Broodlord, Patchwerk, etc... This is where James's comment about tanks who have been doing it for 5+ years becomes relevant, because we've always known it. We knew it on Brutallus too, when we were gearing more avoidance since we had enough stamina and armor to live through his worst double hit + stomp.

Get enough EH to live through the worst case scenario, then work towards reducing the damage you take.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby lralexl » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:49 pm

Sorry bro i'm sure you're just sticking up for your ideals, but all I see is opinion and no math. Math is the universal language for a reason.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:50 pm

JamesVZ wrote:Can you survive two hits back to back from Festergut? Is it because of your stamina that this is possible, or because of your armor? My max hit the other day on Festergut was 25k, and I'm not sure I even had an armor pot popped. I've seen other parses with hits of well over 30k. Which tank would you rather have in front of him? I know which one I'd rather have.

There is no value whatsoever in just quoting how much damage different tanks take when you ignore other relevant factors - namely, the gear worn by the tanks used as examples and their maximum health values.

If you want to make this argument, show us parses of two tanks in similar gear but with armor trinkets versus stamina.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby halabar » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:50 pm

So the new armour is going to resist all that magic and poison flying around? cool!
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby halabar » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:53 pm

JamesVZ wrote:So in real raid scenarios, AC > EH as long as you have enough EH to live through the worst case scenario. It's the only way to make it "easier" to heal the tank.


So what happens when that worst case is 50% or more unavoidable? 40k armour still the way to go?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Meloree » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:01 pm

JamesVZ wrote:
theckhd wrote:I'm not talking about anything new here. This is the same tank-gearing theory that's been used since classic. Stack EH to meet the fight's minimum, and then focus on avoidance/armor/whatever to reduce total damage taken.


What you are advocating is a perversion of that concept -- stack EH to stack EH. Somewhere you got this notion that you are far below where you need to be in some theoretical "TEH" level that is completely besides the point. You need enough effective health to survive a Worst Case Scenario, which is generally pretty easy to achieve, and then from there you stack armor/avoidance/block for damage reduction to make the fight that much easier.


I've just realized something. Something that perhaps should have been clear earlier.

You, JamesVZ, and whoever you quoted, are both completely misinterpreting, and tossing arguments out against that misinterpretation. I would encourage you to read again. The point of the "THE" theorycraft was essentially to determine where the safe point to trade "EH" stats for damage reduction (or threat) stats was, for any given encounter, on an encounter by encounter basis. This should all have been totally clear, I'm not sure where you're taking your spin on it from. But what it amounts to is that Theck has done the math for us on a more sophisticated way to min/max EH against damage reduction and threat stats. You may return to the forums you pulled that other quote from, and tell them that you're all mistaken now.

It's funny, because had you been less adversarial, this would have been established. Had you and your compatriots been more mathematically literate, this would have been clear from the beginning, and there would have been no argument at all. So maybe you should offer an apology for your attitude, and the condescension you've shown - perhaps even on behalf of whoever you linked.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Wrathy » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:02 pm

theckhd wrote:You're wrong. There's nothing else to it really. Armor is a great stat, but you're going to great extremes to try and justify stacking it where it's not the optimal choice.

If you want to keep dancing around taking pot shots at me, feel free. But I'm coming up with numbers and examples that match your "real world boss kills" criterion, and all you seem to be doing is sniping back with erroneous arguments.


This.

Honestly is there an emoticon to show that my jaw is on the desk? This guy is arguing for the sake of arguing. 5 pages in and he has not provided one piece of evidence other than "I am right and you are a moron."

JamesVZ wrote:Get enough EH to live through the worst case scenario, then work towards reducing the damage you take.


I am not sure where this quote came from because you have yet to provide us with reasonable data or links or anything supporting evidence to your claims, however in the little speech you just quoted, this person said the same thing that theck did. The problem that I see from all of the data is, as you have so eloquently pointed out, you are dealing with farmed content. If you are wiping at ALL to NB HM still, then you are no where near cutting edge content where this philosophy is necessary.

Really, you can say what you want about theck, spout half wit lines a about rainbows, etc, but the simple fact of the matter is that we here at the MT community will agree with you if you give us an arguement which is based off of the scientific method. If you do not understand what it is, look it up.

You have provided us with a Theory:
Armor is superior to Stamina in all situations

You have yet to provide us with:
Any data, any conculsions based off of that data, or any form whatsoever of logical proof for your baseless conclusions.

Give us parses, give us some math, give us something other than I have played this game for 5 years, so I am right. I have been part of progression centric guilds for 5 years, and according to your reasoning that means that I am an expert. Well as my newly found expert opinion will say:

Armor is not as powerful as stamina when you apply it to the true value of effective health, the ability to survive the worst case burst of an encounter.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby lralexl » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:05 pm

To be so "superior" James, you sure do care a lot about what the people on these forums think. Else you wouldn't be so quick to use harsh words when people don't agree with you. I sure wish I could have been tanking for as long as you because according to your earlier posts, all you need to be a good tank is "to do it for a long time."

Math > gut feelings any day in my book.

Edit: Wrathy beat me to a lot of that :p
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