Armor vs HP Math Help

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:02 pm

JamesVZ wrote:I don't argue theoretical situations, I gear for real world scenarios.

Yes, apply it a raid boss, a real one. That's the whole point.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:05 pm

The whole point is that there's never a cut and dry trade off like 500 armor for 1k hp. The closest we have is the 1792 armor trinket for another +sta trinket, whatever your options may be there (mine is another 192 stamina trinket), and I've said dozens of times before in pretty much every situation I'd choose the armor trinket over the stamina trinket in a heart beat. In any situation where I don't care about my armor, I'm swapping things in like that terrible expertise trinket from ToC10 so I can rock more threat. Admittedly, this happens to be most of ICC right now with the exception of Festergut and Putricide. I doubt it's a trend I'll be able to continue in heroic modes.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:12 pm

Actually there is, on a boss to boss basis, dictated by their damage makeup. Look, pick a boss with no magic damage whatsoever, that will be the best value for armor, it'll have a cross over point though. What is that point, and what model should be used? I'm making this as easy as I possibly can. If you aren't interested in attempting to prove your assertions, that's fine just say so, but in the very least can you explain the model you used to come up with them?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:19 pm

I don't know how much more clear I can make this....

For the most part, the +armor pieces have roughly the same +sta value as other 264 alternatives. They might fall behind in +sta to some 277 pieces in those slots, but the trade off for armor and stamina in that situation is not something like 500 armor for 1000 hp. The closest thing we have to swapping out raw +sta with raw +armor is the trinket situation, of which the 1792 armor is the much better option in pretty much every scenario I can think of.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:26 pm

JamesVZ wrote:I don't know how much more clear I can make this....

For the most part, the +armor pieces have roughly the same +sta value as other 264 alternatives. They might fall behind in +sta to some 277 pieces in those slots, but the trade off for armor and stamina in that situation is not something like 500 armor for 1000 hp. The closest thing we have to swapping out raw +sta with raw +armor is the trinket situation, of which the 1792 armor is the much better option in pretty much every scenario I can think of.

No one disagrees with the first part, that's EH theory 101. The reason the cross over is important is because it shows whether or not 1800 armor is better than 2500 health, how that conclusion was determined and most importantly how to apply it to other bosses. If fact you can't say one is better than the other at all without having done at least some basic analysis. Something led you to the conclusion you have reached in your head, what at least was the model used to determine this?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Njall » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:27 pm

Fridmarr wrote:No one disagrees with the first part, that's EH theory 101. The reason the cross over is important is because it shows whether or not 1800 armor is better than 2500 health, how that conclusion was determined and most importantly how to apply it to other bosses. If fact you can't say one is better than the other at all without having done at least some basic analysis. Something led you to the conclusion you have reached in your head, what at least was the model used to determine this?


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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Meloree » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:31 pm

JamesVZ wrote:I know I'm right in this because I've been doing this for a very long time, much longer than you have. A quick glance at our armories suggest much better, too.


I haven't been doing this for a very long time. A quick glance at our armories suggest I do it better than you do, though. Much better, too.

Okay, you deserved that, moving on. I don't always agree with Theck. Most of the times that I don't are well documented on this forums, I've often been one of the "real world" foils for his theorycrafting. But I always, always listen to him, read his math and reasoning, and generally learn something useful. Theck's math wizardry has made me a better tank. And I expect that it's done the same for a lot of people. I expect that's why a lot of people are reacting so negatively to your tone.

It's nice that you disagree. We learn something from disagreements. It would be nicer if you would make some attempt to back them up, rather than tossing assertions and ad-hominem attacks. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, you're failing to provide any basis for us to believe that you are an expert, as claimed. As such, we have no rational reason to take your assertions as valid.

You can go ahead and armory me... link is in the signature. It won't say much, because I could be in any of a number of gearsets, but you will probably notice that I bought the key.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Levantine » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:33 pm

Meloree's a stupid tank. :D

Man, I was the most amazingly lucky fly on the wall that was telling both of you to go to bed on Friday.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby tlitp » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:56 pm

JamesVZ wrote:
theckhd wrote:
JamesVZ wrote:You can save yourself a lot of headache and theorycrafting by coming to terms with the fact that Armor is king (...)

No offense, but the reason I do a lot of theorycrafting is because of posts like this.

I'm actually convinced you do a lot of theorycrafting because you like to see your own numbers on the internet.

Ex nihilo nihil fit. If it's not quantifiable, it's not worth discussing.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby halabar » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:28 pm

JamesVZ wrote: I don't really have to prove anything.


If you can't back it up, then why should I listen to anything you have to say over Theck? Think he's wrong?.. PROVE IT.

You come along and attack the entire forum, and have nothing to back it up other than the assertion that you are self-declared as part of "those in the know"? Gimme a break.

We've all seen plenty of tanks succeed despite making less than optimal choices due to the skill of those around them. So quoting successes doesn't mean everything in proving optimal choices. So we need the math and theorycrafting to really look at things. Bluster doesn't help.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Gaffer » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:34 pm

JamesVZ wrote:I don't argue theoretical situations, I gear for real world scenarios.


This game is absolutely ruled by numbers. Applying proven math to a worst case scenario for any given encounter is going to give you the best chance for survival. I'm not sure how you can think otherwise. If you think he's undervalued something, you have to prove it. Hell, he's done all the work, step-by-step formula derivations that are laid out, so that you can easily disprove him. And if you managed to do so with some sort of hard evidence, I'm sure the community, especially Theck, would be on board to note what you've said. But if you're looking for a large audience that's willing to take your thoughts on empty statements, you'd probably be better off visiting the official forums.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Melathys » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:22 pm

comparing warriors to paladins is like apples to oranges.

There seems to be one key ingredient missing, so far, from the argument of stamina (for paladins)...Ardent Defender.

I love armor. I'm very torn between tier and badge. The cloak was my first purchase (not to mention I was still wearing the 213 badge cloak), then the belt. But stamina can't be ignored for paladins. The larger we make the ardent defender window, the greater our survivability for any kind of damage.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Kihra » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:20 pm

Melathys wrote:comparing warriors to paladins is like apples to oranges.

There seems to be one key ingredient missing, so far, from the argument of stamina (for paladins)...Ardent Defender.


Ardent Defender is not relevant when comparing armor to stamina. The ratio of armor to stamina for a paladin tank (e.g., 11:1) is not affected by AD.

The same holds true for all forms of damage reduction as well. Anything that can be thought of ultimately as a multiplier to your effective health (damage reduction talents, AD's passive mitigation) applies equally well to increases in armor as it does to increases in stamina.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:37 pm

Kihra wrote:
Melathys wrote:comparing warriors to paladins is like apples to oranges.

There seems to be one key ingredient missing, so far, from the argument of stamina (for paladins)...Ardent Defender.


Ardent Defender is not relevant when comparing armor to stamina. The ratio of armor to stamina for a paladin tank (e.g., 11:1) is not affected by AD.

The same holds true for all forms of damage reduction as well. Anything that can be thought of ultimately as a multiplier to your effective health (damage reduction talents, AD's passive mitigation) applies equally well to increases in armor as it does to increases in stamina.

He's not talking about how AD reduces damage, but when AD is triggered and the healing effect of it.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Meloree » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:55 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Kihra wrote:
Melathys wrote:comparing warriors to paladins is like apples to oranges.

There seems to be one key ingredient missing, so far, from the argument of stamina (for paladins)...Ardent Defender.


Ardent Defender is not relevant when comparing armor to stamina. The ratio of armor to stamina for a paladin tank (e.g., 11:1) is not affected by AD.

The same holds true for all forms of damage reduction as well. Anything that can be thought of ultimately as a multiplier to your effective health (damage reduction talents, AD's passive mitigation) applies equally well to increases in armor as it does to increases in stamina.

He's not talking about how AD reduces damage, but when AD is triggered and the healing effect of it.


And yet the statement still remains completely true.
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