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Armor vs HP Math Help

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby balloonknot » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:57 pm

I tend to side in the EH camp as almost every tank death i've been involved in is the 3-5 damaging attack type of death, i can't recall being witness to a dwindle down death. All the deaths i've specifically looked at in the 3-5 attack range do, however, always have some amount of healing, be it ES,VE,HoT's, etc.

Theck seems to have started the calculations to determine the value of armor vs stamina given the amount of healing taken over a period of time.

It would, perhaps, be valuable to have a new value that amounts to something like "EH over 5sec". We clearly can't know the exact amount of healing in any given situation but given enough logs we certainly could come up with a reasonable guess as to the amount of incidental healing that tends to occur, or at the very least be able to chart the value of armor vs stam as the amount of healing taken in a given window varies.

EDIT: oops on the quote.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:41 pm

theckhd wrote:I actually disagree. Most of us are comfortably passing the tank checks, regardless of what order we purchased things in. For us, bang for the buck will matter when hard modes come out and (presumably) offer real tank checks and we can really put those armor options to use.

We're all going to have the same chest, cloak, gloves, and belt by that point anyway, whether we're gearing for armor or EH.

It does matter for players who aren't already over-gearing the normal-mode content though.

I am not as comfortably passing tank-checks as some, due to some problems with my former guild that hindered our progress in ToGC. So for me these choices are very relevant, and my current resources are very scarce since while I have a 10s group I am not currently getting the additional frost badges from 25s.

I bought the gloves because of the lovely armour that they have, but now I understand the tier gloves are being armour-boosted as well, so I wonder if that was the right call. Due to the good pieces I do have, hands, head, and gloves are my best candidates for tier slots to get the 2-pc bonus. I am thinking I should have got the chest, leaving hands and head for tier.

That's a bit off-topic, but it's an example of a real gear choice that needs to be made with limited resources, and where this and other discussions are important contributors to making the decision.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:51 pm

The offset badge gloves are going to be pretty far superior to the tier gloves for you, especially if you aren't doing 25s and can't upgrade them to the 264.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:22 pm

JamesVZ wrote:The offset badge gloves are going to be pretty far superior to the tier gloves for you, especially if you aren't doing 25s and can't upgrade them to the 264.

I realise that - I am looking at the difference of gloves-to-tier-gloves and chest-to-tier-chest.

Interesting that you would prefer tier chest and badge gloves to badge chest and tier gloves.

Difference is as follows (tier chest/badge gloves vs. badge chest/tier gloves)

+60 str
-7 stam
-31 amrour
-116 def rating
-82 expertise
+60 dodge
+124 parry
-54 hit rating

I'll need to do some DR calcs figure the overall avoidance difference.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby balloonknot » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:33 pm

Koatanga wrote:
JamesVZ wrote:The offset badge gloves are going to be pretty far superior to the tier gloves for you, especially if you aren't doing 25s and can't upgrade them to the 264.

I realise that - I am looking at the difference of gloves-to-tier-gloves and chest-to-tier-chest.

Interesting that you would prefer tier chest and badge gloves to badge chest and tier gloves.

Difference is as follows (tier chest/badge gloves vs. badge chest/tier gloves)

+60 str
-7 stam
-31 amrour
-116 def rating
-82 expertise
+60 dodge
+124 parry
-54 hit rating

I'll need to do some DR calcs figure the overall avoidance difference.


The largest issue with the tier chest is that the lack of defense makes it very difficult to wear with Pillars of Might and pillars are the clear BiS EH option. This fact alone is pushing me to the badge chest. Although I have no desire for either of the paly T10 bonuses.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby wingman » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:40 pm

Man, what entertainment. I slack from browsing the forums for a few days and come back to this! You guys made my boring work day worthwhile.

Theck has hit people upside the head with math, and they refused to take it. So, how about I hit you guys upside the head with some anecdotal evidence, since that seems to be so popular. So, I stack stamina. I'm a stamina whore (ok, except for when I tank adds on heroic Anub where I've made it a project to see how low I can get my health pool and I keep trying to whittle away at how much I heal Anub for in phase 3 - I've done it with less than 30k health, but that's another story). I also like armor. They're both great, but I tend to prefer stam to armor when they're present in equal amounts. You know what I don't like? Dying!

My opinion is that you can never have enough health OR armor until you just ridiculously outgear places. As many have stated previously, tanks don't die to prolonged slow damage unless something else is going on. The simple truth is that with Kihra and I as main tanks, our guild just doesn't wipe due to tank deaths. We may wipe to enrage, or a positioning error or healing fail while learning an encounter, but never to a tank death. Do we like avoidance? Sure, it's nice. Do we like bonus armor? You bet! But we just don't wipe due to tank deaths. That's the best evidence I can give for why our gearing choices work. Personally, I don't think you can have "enough" health. The whole healing trickle is precisely why. So what if you don't have enough health for 3 hits with 0 heals. You may have enough for 2.7, and that JoL tick, rejuv, and earth shield that all ticked while your holy paly ran out of slime on the ground or loaded back in from a disconnect may be JUST enough to save your ass.

If our healers were constantly complaining that they were hurting for mana, then maybe I'd reconsider our gearing strategy. But they don't. They also say we're fairly easy to heal compared to other tanks. Plus, there's a natural bias by non tanks to judge a tank by their health pool. When our guild zones into ICC and the mage or the tree druid sees that his tank has 60k health, they have confidence that we as tanks can face whatever the boss throws at us and survive.

If you want some evidence, look at a log from last night if you want. I don't have time to break it down myself, but maybe some of you do. Last night our guild focused on achievements in ICC. Everyone talks about how hard Festergut hits. When we got to Festergut, I was so focused on making sure that everyone in the raid had no more than 2 stacks of the damage debuff, I completely forgot that he was at 3 stacks and beating the crap out of me. Normally we use a cooldown rotation of bubble wall, pain suppression, trinkets to make it thru this "danger zone." Other than drinking an armor pot, I did nothing to help mitigate any of his "big hits" and yet was able to survive them just fine. In fact, ardent defender never procced. Did I get lucky with avoidance? Maybe. But a cursory glance at the logs makes it appear to me that I had enough EH to take his big hits, get topped off a little bit, then take some more until I avoided a hit and the overhealing rolled in. Anyway, below is the log if you care to look. I did equip the Corpse Tongue Coin because I just think it's a ridiculous "automatic" effective health cooldown whenever you need it and it just seems to mesh real well with Ardent Defender, but other than that, I was wearing all EH pieces and stam trinkets.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mb54jnd0t43gut7i/
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:03 pm

Koatanga wrote:
JamesVZ wrote:The offset badge gloves are going to be pretty far superior to the tier gloves for you, especially if you aren't doing 25s and can't upgrade them to the 264.

I realise that - I am looking at the difference of gloves-to-tier-gloves and chest-to-tier-chest.

Interesting that you would prefer tier chest and badge gloves to badge chest and tier gloves.

Difference is as follows (tier chest/badge gloves vs. badge chest/tier gloves)

+60 str
-7 stam
-31 amrour
-116 def rating
-82 expertise
+60 dodge
+124 parry
-54 hit rating

I'll need to do some DR calcs figure the overall avoidance difference.

Update: Unless my maths are wrong, it looks like overall avoidance is about -0.3%

So the badge gloves option would give me -31 armour, -7 stam, -82 expertise, -54 hit rating and -0.3% avoidance for +60 strength.

Looks like I should have gone with the chest, leaving hands and head for tier items. GG Bliz fucking up the stats. Really appreciate that one.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Hammerjudge » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:34 pm

Edit: removed for being a fanboy and not having read before posting.
Last edited by Hammerjudge on Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:31 pm

Koatanga wrote:I realise that - I am looking at the difference of gloves-to-tier-gloves and chest-to-tier-chest.


Why get the tier chest at all?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:04 pm

wingman wrote:If you want some evidence, look at a log from last night if you want.


Indeed I did!

Here's your 3 stack Festergut:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mb54 ... 903&e=6933

Here's mine:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/t3ylahn7 ... 951&e=4982

Both were with no cooldowns, though I'm pretty sure I popped Shield Block. My average damage per swing taken was nearly 10% less than yours, though it looks like I was a little less lucky on dodges and misses and ended up taking a fair bit more damage. Exact same number of parries. My maximum possible hit was [20:17:40.271] Festergut hits Jamesvz 23049 (A: 2348, B: 5550) for 30947 damage, and yours was [21:54:59.414] Festergut hits Wiingman 32299 (A: 473, B: 2202) for 34974 damage, or roughly 13% more. Both of us had Indestructible Potions on. This is on top of you having (or should have, I think anyway) an innate 2% damage reduction lead on me. Your Corpse Tongue Coin procced every so slightly before your transition into 90% Festergut, and once more right towards the end.

Not sure how to check for Ardent Defender damage reduction, or I'd do that as well, but I'd say this reinforces my point a little bit about armor. You had what, 55k health? 56 maybe due to Paladin scaling? I have just shy of 54k health. For a sacrifice of what, 3% of your health I gain roughly 10% damage reduction on average. I'd make that tradeoff any day and twice on Sunday, personally.

EDIT: For reference, my unbuffed armor is 35368, and yours is 28988, a difference of 6380, a 4.47% increase in DR vs level 83.

EDIT2: I, in fact, did not hit Shield Block while he was in 90% mode. Silly me.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:57 pm

At this point individual logs are near useless. There's just no way that both of the models don't happen, and cases where one model works over the other are bound to exist. Logs in aggregate may have value for deriving an average case, but that's about it.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:06 pm

...

The whole point, the whole reason I came here is because I have yet to see a Paladin stack armor in any significant degree, even though it gives better returns for just about every tank pressuring fight you can think of. These two logs represent the very essence of the debate. We've said why, conceptually, that armor stacking is good. We now have logs that show a very large gain from it. I'd say it's extremely relevant for every single tank out there to consider that maybe, just maybe the effective health/TTL formulas they're using to gear their characters aren't quite as good as they thought they were.

I mean, feel free to bring up any various points in my log parsing against me, but a 10% damage reduction is a huge, huge benefit and it's pretty much all gotten via badge armor pieces. Sure, 'effective health' might work in some bizarre scenario we simply haven't seen yet. Maybe Sindragosa, depending on breath frequency and melee damage. Maybe. For every other encounter that you're being pressured on, you're going to want to stack armor. Show me evidence to the contrary.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:46 pm

JamesVZ wrote:...

The whole point, the whole reason I came here is because I have yet to see a Paladin stack armor in any significant degree, even though it gives better returns for just about every tank pressuring fight you can think of. These two logs represent the very essence of the debate. We've said why, conceptually, that armor stacking is good. We now have logs that show a very large gain from it. I'd say it's extremely relevant for every single tank out there to consider that maybe, just maybe the effective health/TTL formulas they're using to gear their characters aren't quite as good as they thought they were.

I mean, feel free to bring up any various points in my log parsing against me, but a 10% damage reduction is a huge, huge benefit and it's pretty much all gotten via badge armor pieces. Sure, 'effective health' might work in some bizarre scenario we simply haven't seen yet. Maybe Sindragosa, depending on breath frequency and melee damage. Maybe. For every other encounter that you're being pressured on, you're going to want to stack armor. Show me evidence to the contrary.
Are you seriously trying to take us back to page 1? First of all, you came here to be a dick, period. You did not come here for our benefit.

Your argument that armor is always better, even in a purely physical fight, is wrong. The argument that EH is always better, is also wrong. That seemed to be agreed upon a few pages back by both sides. What differentiates the two is the amount of healing in the 100-0 burn down and the damage makeup. There is likely countless logs that show each model is better than the other. There are several such logs in this thread. Individually, they aren't of much value. As a whole they might be if they present a compelling case that one model is far more common than the other. Unfortunately, that's very difficult to determine, and an unlikely outcome anyhow.

In reality, there has not been much opportunity for stacking armor, and the plus armor pieces that exist now generally have the highest EH and would be chosen anyhow. Armor is part of EH, so when a piece with the same stamina as the rest of its tier also has additional armor, it is by definition, the highest EH piece.

10% mitigation is freaking huge, but you aren't getting that from armor, unless you outgear whoever you are comparing yourself too. The only piece that's really in question is the trinket, which is about 1.5% mitigation versus 2.5k health. If I remember the posted math correctly, in a purely physical damage fight, you need 24k healing during the burn down for the armor trinket to equal the stamina trinket. In my experience it's not typical that I receive that much healing during a death, but your mileage may vary.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Koatanga » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:07 am

JamesVZ wrote:Why get the tier chest at all?

Because the 2-pc bonus looks attractive. May not be after further analysis, but for now it looks like a decent threat increase.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby heuvarius » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:13 am

Fridmarr wrote:The only piece that's really in question is the trinket, which is about 1.5% mitigation versus 2.5k health. If I remember the posted math correctly, in a purely physical damage fight, you need 24k healing during the burn down for the armor trinket to equal the stamina trinket. In my experience it's not typical that I receive that much healing during a death, but your mileage may vary.


The most common tank death scenario for myself is when my healers are taken out of action. E.G. healers being linked on Blood-Queen. In such cases, 100->0 tend to happen with me having very little incoming heals.

Again, YMMV, but it's a fairly clear decision to me when it comes down to which trinket I choose.
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