parry/dodge dr and 1.88 ratio question

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parry/dodge dr and 1.88 ratio question

Postby Hobs » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:40 am

Ok, so I'm a little confused on our targets for parry/dodge and the 1.88 ratio as posted here: taken from the gearing forum...

Parry Rating

Don't be fooled by the buff to parry in 3.2; it still isn't as good as dodge. But the changes made it acceptable to intelligently gem for parry. Theck generated a rule of thumb that maximizes avoidance:

Stack up to 689 defense rating (for defense minimum a.k.a. uncrittable)
At low gear levels (defense rating + dodge rating + parry rating < 1150 or so), just ignore additional defense and stack dodge and parry rating in a 1.88:1 ratio. (Agility can be substituted for dodge rating by multiplying the agility by 0.83.)
At higher gear levels (defense + dodge + parry ratings > 1150), gear so that the post-diminishing returns dodge and parry percentages (the ones from the character sheet) come out as close to a 1.88:1 ratio as possible, using the formula:

Be sure to perform this check while raid buffed, including nearly-always-up buffs like the dodge rating from Libram of Defiance.


Most tankadins acquire more than enough parry rating from gear, and thus few ever exceed the 1.88:1 ratio. If in doubt, or if you just don't want to bother with the formula, stack agility.


I've been gemming under the assumption, or misinformation, that anything over 30% in dodge took a massive hit to DR. As such, the parry to dodge equivilancy change made parry = dodge...thus I needed to gem for parry over dodge all the time due to dodge taking such a hit and parry being equal. This is off of memory...raid buffed I'm close to 36% dodge and parry is almost 24%...which puts me a close to that 1.88 ratio.

I'm also from the older school of avoidance over stam stacking. I'd rather be missed versus being able to take more hits. What is so bad about using the shoulder/helm/glove enchants with the avoidance over just straight stam? I've read the posts on this, but there are so many arguements on each side that it's hard to sort through the definitive answer. I mean, sure I could stack stam to get ~60k HP in raids, but I'd rather sacrifice ~5k hp for 5% avoidance.

Could someone clear these up in a Romper Room style answer for me? Thanks.

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Re: parry/dodge dr and 1.88 ratio question

Postby Iselian » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:16 pm

The short answer, from all that I have read, follows this:

1) Healers have an abundance of mana this expansion, either from zomg hueg-liek-ps3 mana pools, sick regen, or a mix of the two
2) Since they have nearly endless mana, they can spam their little hearts out with no care for overhealing
3) Since they spam healing so much, damage intake has to be exceptionally spikey, or unavoidable, or both
4) To survive either unavoidable, spikey, or spikey unavoidable damage, we have to stack stamina to a large degree

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the idea of "Yeah, I could stack to take more hits, but be a mana sponge, so I'd rather avoid it entirely" but this expansion has too much unavoidable damage, most notably from hard modes/heroic raids, to warrant avoidance reducing enough damage to be favored over stamina.

The ideal example is Gormok the Impaler. His impales, impale dots and stomps cannot be avoided; only his melee attacks can. Since only the melee can be avoided, and so much else can't, stamina wins out in living through that fight.

Sidenote, my "avoidance" set of gear gives me roughly 5-8% more avoidance, at the cost of 10k health. Likely needs some updates, but you get the idea, it's not 1k for 1% avoidance, especially when your gear grows and diminishing returns are pushing your dodge 'n parry.
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Re: parry/dodge dr and 1.88 ratio question

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:43 pm

The ratio thing is fairly straight forward. If you are uncritable from defense, then it's worth gearing for parry (over dodge) when your dodge rating to parry rating is 1.88:1. I don't think that corresponds to your dodge percentage, I think it's dodge rating.

As for avoidance versus stamina, it's an age old debate really. In the current environment it's hard to make a case to stack avoidance over stamina. However, avoidance is not about reducing overall damage taken to save mana, it's about reducing the frequency of bursts. Contrary to popular myth, getting hit less often typically equates to significantly less spikey damage not the other way around. In it's ability to mitigate bursts from consecutive swings, avoidance provides escalating returns. However, with avoidance being lowered because of Chill of the Throne, that takes a hit. Add to that, that encounters are being designed with significant portions of damage that are not avoidable, and you have situation that really favors stamina stacking to absurd proportions.
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Re: parry/dodge dr and 1.88 ratio question

Postby Gamingdevil » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:46 am

Fridmarr wrote:The ratio thing is fairly straight forward. If you are uncritable from defense, then it's worth gearing for parry (over dodge) when your dodge rating to parry rating is 1.88:1. I don't think that corresponds to your dodge percentage, I think it's dodge rating.


No, it's dodge percentage. (dodge%-10)/(parry%-10) > 1.88 => get more parry. Those -10's is for the base values, counting talent gains, since those don't suffer from diminishing returns.
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Re: parry/dodge dr and 1.88 ratio question

Postby Thels » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:05 am

Fridmarr wrote:Contrary to popular myth, getting hit less often typically equates to significantly less spikey damage not the other way around.


You're wrong. Less overall damage doesn't equal less spiky damage.

The stamina tank and the avoidance tank take the same damage per hit. The stamina tank takes a continuous string of hits, while the avoidance tank takes a string of hits one time and no hits the other time.

Since the avoidance tank still can and will take strings of hits, it needs just as much healing as the stamina tank. The stamina tank gives it's healers more leeway, though.
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Re: parry/dodge dr and 1.88 ratio question

Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:15 am

Yeah yeah avoidance vs stam yadda yadda DROP IT!
He asked about the avoidance gearing ratios, and it's very simple
(dodge%-10)/(parry%-10) > 1,88? Seek parry. Otherwise, seek dodge. That's how those two stats compare.
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Re: parry/dodge dr and 1.88 ratio question

Postby baneoftruth » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:09 am

Hobs wrote:I've been gemming under the assumption, or misinformation, that anything over 30% in dodge took a massive hit to DR. As such, the parry to dodge equivilancy change made parry = dodge...thus I needed to gem for parry over dodge all the time due to dodge taking such a hit and parry being equal. This is off of memory...raid buffed I'm close to 36% dodge and parry is almost 24%...which puts me a close to that 1.88 ratio.

DR kicks in the moment you get 1 dodge/parry/miss rating or 1 defense skill. The actual % has nothing to do with it.

I'm also from the older school of avoidance over stam stacking. I'd rather be missed versus being able to take more hits. What is so bad about using the shoulder/helm/glove enchants with the avoidance over just straight stam? I've read the posts on this, but there are so many arguements on each side that it's hard to sort through the definitive answer. I mean, sure I could stack stam to get ~60k HP in raids, but I'd rather sacrifice ~5k hp for 5% avoidance.

There have always been two schools of tanking, avoidance and effective health. How you combine the two of them is completely up to you.

I'm not 100% sure which helm/gloves enchants you are referring to here (TBC helm and agi to gloves?), but the Hodir shoulder enchant is fine.

By the way, run the macro below while raid buffed to determine if parry > dodge:
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("If ratio above 1.88 start getting Parry. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", (GetDodgeChance()-10)/(GetParryChance()-10)))
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