Last Word and weapon swapping.

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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:33 am

Kihra wrote:
Varuk wrote:If this weapon does actually have 100% uptime, then Theckhd predicted on the weapon TPS analysis that it would easily be the highest threat weapon we have access too for this expansion, competitive with DPS one-handers.


Does it beat Bloodvenom Blade?

No, not even close. I probably should have been clearer with my wording in the text Varuk quoted - The 277 version of Last word pulls ahead of Troggbane, the 264 version doesn't quite get there though. So 264 Bloodvenom will always be ahead of 264 Last Word, and 277 Bloodvenom will always be better than 277 Last Word, but with 100% uptime on the proc the 277 Last Word can sneak ahead of Bloodvenom 264.

Data for 100% uptime on the buff (100 STR for normal, 115 for heroic)
Code: Select all
                                             TPS       
Weapon                           ilvl   1V+3C  3R+1V+3C
Last Word                         264    9236    9534 
Last Word (277)                   277    9424    9734 
Bloodvenom Blade                  264    9396    9800 
Bloodvenom Blade (277)            277    9574    9994 
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:14 am

Oh, I should probably add something relevant to the OP:

Weapon swapping, in general, will never result in an increase in DPS. 100 STR should translate to something like 300 TPS, or something like 130ish DPS (roughly). But losing a GCD will cost you much, much more than that. Even replacing Holy Shield with a weapon swap will give you a net DPS loss, both because you lose Holy Shield damage and because you'll reset your swing timer, losing auto-attack and Seal damage.
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby Phonic » Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:23 pm

Theck, got this wep last night... I can say from just mild testing (heroics, dummies)... it's close to 90-95% uptime.
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:40 am

theckhd wrote:Oh, I should probably add something relevant to the OP:

Weapon swapping, in general, will never result in an increase in DPS. 100 STR should translate to something like 300 TPS, or something like 130ish DPS (roughly). But losing a GCD will cost you much, much more than that. Even replacing Holy Shield with a weapon swap will give you a net DPS loss, both because you lose Holy Shield damage and because you'll reset your swing timer, losing auto-attack and Seal damage.


Weapon swapping only incurs a GCD if you're not already in one. If you hit a weapon switch while you're in GCD for another ability it'll only extend the GCD a small amount. e.g. hit ability at 0 seconds, hit weapon switch at 0.3 seconds, GCD finishes at 1.8 seconds. Swing timer will indeed reset though, meaning threat loss unless you're some sort of freak who can get a weapon switch synced just after a completed swing and just as you've entered GCD, but knowing you can weapon switch in GCD can come in useful for other situations (e.g. on Anub before each wave I holy shield + switch to hit weapon in a GCD, AS one, taunt two, HoF and switch to avoidance weapon in that GCD).
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:10 am

Rhiannon wrote:Weapon swapping only incurs a GCD if you're not already in one. If you hit a weapon switch while you're in GCD for another ability it'll only extend the GCD a small amount. e.g. hit ability at 0 seconds, hit weapon switch at 0.3 seconds, GCD finishes at 1.8 seconds.

Are you sure about this? I know librams work that way, but I thought that they adjusted it so you couldn't do that with weapons.
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:41 am

Ya, I'm sure. Can do:

/cast Holy Shield
/equip Shiver

and then hit another ability right after one GCD.
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:00 am

Hm... ok, then disregard the comment about losing a GCD. Still though, you'd certainly extend the GCD slightly due to latency, and you'd reset the swing timer (though that's less of an issue if you're swapping to a fast tanking weapon, I guess).
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby Iselian » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:28 pm

Would the 300 healing received be worth noting? If you are sitting at 100% threat and the next dps is 70% threat, with a salv or personal dps drop (feign, vanish) available, you could afford the tps loss in favor of survivability. If the 300 healing is worth it, and persists after the weapon swap.

I haven't heard of a raid wiping because the tank's dps was low, though I can see some points where every damage point matters. *waves at Festergut*
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby Varuk » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:41 pm

Iselian wrote:Would the 300 healing received be worth noting? If you are sitting at 100% threat and the next dps is 70% threat, with a salv or personal dps drop (feign, vanish) available, you could afford the tps loss in favor of survivability. If the 300 healing is worth it, and persists after the weapon swap.

I haven't heard of a raid wiping because the tank's dps was low, though I can see some points where every damage point matters. *waves at Festergut*
If the "300 increased healing" acts as pseudo-spellpower, it's pretty much the same magnitude as Divinity. For my holy suit, my HL hits for 12k on average after raid buffs. Divinity increases that by 5%, so it's a 600 point increase. 300 more SP would do roughly the same -- 300 * 1.66 (SP coefficient) * 1.12 (Healing Light) * 1.06 (Improved Devotion Aura) * 1.05 (my Divinity) = 621 additional healing per HL. I am not so intimately aware of SP coefficients of other classes to say it'd be the same for them, but for a holy paladin it'd be a wash. If it's just +300 healing added per spell (I.E., spread out throughout HoTs) then it'd be half of Divinity. If it's +300 per every instance of healing it'd be half of Divinity for direct healers and ~10x Divinity for resto druids.

The 300 pseudo-SP is probably the most likely result. IIRC that's how Amplify works, and they probably used the same code. If this is the case, it's basically just the Divinity talent -- you sacrifice 80-100 points of various avoidance ratings, depending on what you're replacing, and you basically gain the Divinity talent plus some decent threat.

To try and put that into perspective some, we didn't like the Divinity talent when it cost us threat. There was a time when we would gladly choose 3/5 Reckoning over 3/5 Divinity back before the SoV changes and Reckoning was a very poor threat talent. In my eyes, avoidance > threat, so if I'm not willing to sacrifice threat to gain this why would I sacrifice avoidance? I can't speak for everyone, but that's how I see it.

If this weapon drops, I'm going to treat it as a threat weapon, but I highly doubt I'll wear it for progression content.
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby Iselian » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:31 pm

Varuk wrote:In my eyes, avoidance > threat, so if I'm not willing to sacrifice threat to gain this why would I sacrifice avoidance? I can't speak for everyone, but that's how I see it.

If this weapon drops, I'm going to treat it as a threat weapon, but I highly doubt I'll wear it for progression content.


Mm, as far as the avoidance goes, if you swapped to it, gained the buff, and swapped back, then I don't think you'd lose much overall avoidance, aside from the brief window where you wore Last Word.

That said, this weapon is looking more and more lackluster. No avoidance? Really? None at all?
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby Dharleth » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:18 pm

Having gathered the item yesterday, I started some tests on the proc.

I used FoL in tank and healing spec, and additionally hl when specced on healing.

as tank, my fol healed for roughly 1750, having 930 spell power.
with the proc, i was at 999 spell power and healing for 2150. subtracting the str boost, its roughly the 300 extra heal suggested by the proc.

as healer, my fol healed for 2970, with proc for 3270.
hl, w/ libram, healed for ~9750 w/o and ~1050 /w the proc.
to maintain those precise numbers, i was ooming me by spamming hl and tracking the numbers, middling it and so on.

i hope this helps so far, will do some more testing, once i get some hotting ones to spare time.

so long
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby Varuk » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:10 pm

Dharleth wrote:Having gathered the item yesterday, I started some tests on the proc.

I used FoL in tank and healing spec, and additionally hl when specced on healing.

as tank, my fol healed for roughly 1750, having 930 spell power.
with the proc, i was at 999 spell power and healing for 2150. subtracting the str boost, its roughly the 300 extra heal suggested by the proc.

as healer, my fol healed for 2970, with proc for 3270.
hl, w/ libram, healed for ~9750 w/o and ~1050 /w the proc.
to maintain those precise numbers, i was ooming me by spamming hl and tracking the numbers, middling it and so on.

i hope this helps so far, will do some more testing, once i get some hotting ones to spare time.

so long
Question: You say your HL went from 9750 to 10050, or 10500? If it went from 9750 to 10050 the it's just a static +300 and is not acting as pseudo-spellpower. If that's the case, I would love to see what it does to HoTs.
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby Dharleth » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:32 pm

oh sorry, my bad. it went up to 10050 healing.

but thanks for replying. your thought was what i tried to point out. i got some mates sparing time for more testing, in fact druid and shaman (priest inc the upcoming 2 days)

for the shaman:
lesser wave -- 6550 to 6850
that weapon enchant proc -- 774 to 833 (per tick)
riptide -- 1030 to 1097 (per tick)
healing wave -- 12600 to 12900

for the druid:
1st: feral, 0 spellpower.
rejunivate -- 338 to 451 (per tick)
regrwoth -- 335 to 391 (per tick)[only ticks tracked here, didnt look at the direct heal, but i guess it went up by 300..)
2nd: tree, >0 spellpowr
rejunivate -- 1873 to 2076 (per tick)
regrowth -- 1039 to 1191 (per tick) [again no direct heal tracked]
lifeblood -- 412 to 422 (per tick)
[looks like we forgot to track wild growth, and the final heal of lifeblood]

priest information to come.

so long..
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby Varuk » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:16 pm

Really odd behavior on those HoTs. Is it's contribution getting multiplied by talents? Really strange with how it seems to be a static +300 on direct heals.
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Re: Last Word and weapon swapping.

Postby knaughty » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:07 am

It's wonderful for solo through 5-man content.

My JoL procs are now over 1k.
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