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DPS Tanking & Heroics

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DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Khael » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:40 am

Hi all, first time poster long time reader here.

I think a lot of you are in the same boat as me, you got most of your main tank gear sorted.. you either cleared ToGC or your stuck wiping on Anub either way you are pretty well geared by now.

Then blizzard put in the LFG tool, and heroics are all of a sudden fun again ! YaY :lol: but why would you tank a heroic with 45k+ unbuffed hp ?

Why?

When you with a little gear swapping could be at, say, 35k hp and be pulling 3-4-5k dps at the same time ? Now dont tell me "But im allready pulling 5k in my main tank gear" because honestly i wont believe you :)

I tinkered around with a gearset, and spec, to try and fulfill the following criterias:
I want to be defense capped obviously, 540 (i know 535 is enough for heroics)
I want to have 35k hp unbuffed minimum
I want to stay "close" to the block cap with about 3k blockvalue

That takes care of the surviability aspects.

Now for some pew pew dps

I want to be hit and expertise capped and a decent crit %.

Ok then, luckely i have Ret as offspec and have picked up a few nice items from running 10m heroic and other content for far too long.

This is what i came up with
http://armory.wow-europe.com/character- ... ak&n=Khael

And i respecced my ret offspec to a "dps-prot" spec, mostly taking reckoning and a little more crit talents to boost dps
http://armory.wow-europe.com/character- ... el&group=2

I know my trinkets are bad, and my gemming seems wierd for generel tanking. But this was meant to be "fun" and im now pulling 4.5k overall dps in heroics, im doing 3.5-4kish on single target fights with a little movement. And ICC rep trash farming im topping the meters with 9-11k dps :)

I made this post, not to brag, but to hear if there are anyone else out there who has tried something similar or has some input to how to improve this.

Cheers for reading so far :)

~Khael
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Meloree » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:59 am

It's been covered. In Theck's Matlab thread. It came from a few people discussing using their Anub specs in heroics and going over 6k dps for the instance.

4k-5k dps in a heroic in a MT set/spec is completely feasible. 7k is not out of reach in heroics in threat-heavy gear/spec.

Your spec could use some work. Part the first: Seal of Command is the heroic dps seal of choice. Part the second: You want at least one point in Judgements of the Just, because it causes judgements to proc seals. Part the third: Benediction is a bad choice, the 2nd point of imp. judgements would be better. In heroics, you're often not doing a strict 969, the 8 second cooldown comes in handy.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Khael » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:07 am

Thanks for the reply!

You wouldnt happen to have a link to the post by Theck would you.. the thread is 90 pages long afterall...

And 7k dps in a heroic ? would like to see a template for a setup doing that much in a random heroic.. remember its not a raidbuffed group, just 5 random guys, and you trying your best.

Cheers !
~Khael

PS: I have been debating with my self if seal of command was worth it or not.. 1 point in seal of command is costting me 200 str 10 expertise and 1% crit, and with a weapon with 2.6 speed the extra hits from 5stack corruption really starts putting out some nice numbers :)
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Kihra » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:16 am

Khael wrote:Thanks for the reply!

You wouldnt happen to have a link to the post by Theck would you.. the thread is 90 pages long afterall...

And 7k dps in a heroic ? would like to see a template for a setup doing that much in a random heroic.. remember its not a raidbuffed group, just 5 random guys, and you trying your best.

Cheers !
~Khael

PS: I have been debating with my self if seal of command was worth it or not.. 1 point in seal of command is costting me 200 str 10 expertise and 1% crit, and with a weapon with 2.6 speed the extra hits from 5stack corruption really starts putting out some nice numbers :)


One thing to keep in mind is that boss threat and trash threat can be a bit different.

For hit capping, a DPS hit trinket works really well. It practically hit caps you all by itself.

For multi-mob pulls you want Seal of Command. You'll want to dodge cap Expertise against level 82 mobs from gear alone (remember Glyph of Seal of Vengeance doesn't help you). You'll want to use the 226 Libram (the 245 Libram doesn't work with Seal of Command), and Block Value is not as important as having high Strength.

For boss pulls you want Seal of Vengeance and the 245 Libram, and don't have to devalue Block Value pieces so much.

One nice advantage to Seal of Command is that the bounce from the primary target can hit two secondary targets that aren't in front of you. This means that in the brave new world of messed up mob positioning, Seal of Command works really well if mobs get behind you, as long as you have one mob to hit in front of you.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:09 am

Khael wrote:Thanks for the reply!

You wouldnt happen to have a link to the post by Theck would you.. the thread is 90 pages long afterall...

And 7k dps in a heroic ? would like to see a template for a setup doing that much in a random heroic.. remember its not a raidbuffed group, just 5 random guys, and you trying your best.

Cheers !
~Khael

PS: I have been debating with my self if seal of command was worth it or not.. 1 point in seal of command is costting me 200 str 10 expertise and 1% crit, and with a weapon with 2.6 speed the extra hits from 5stack corruption really starts putting out some nice numbers :)

This is the post with the math for Seal of Command.

Here's where the brief discussion about heroic DPS started, though I suspect neither Wrathy or I are wearing our threat sets on the Armory currently. However, my current spec (preserved here for posterity) is more or less optimized for heroic farming. If you want to tweak it a bit for slightly higher DPS, move the points from Vindication into Conviction and optionally move one point from Judgements of the Just into Reckoning.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Meloree » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:37 am

Khael wrote:And 7k dps in a heroic ? would like to see a template for a setup doing that much in a random heroic.. remember its not a raidbuffed group, just 5 random guys, and you trying your best.


My 2nd spec in armory is what I use in heroics. My gear setup is (from memory, this might be a bit off)

T9.258 hat (full EH enchants, it's my raid tanking hat)
245 Jaraxxus neck (str gem, I have a 2nd with stamina, and an Arbiter's Muse)
ICC25 shoulders (full EH enchants, these just have lots of strength)
239 Titanskin cloak (str gem - hit and expertise in one, plus loads of def)
258 Jaraxxus chest (full EH enchants)
258 Val'kyr wrists (full EH enchants)
245 ret gloves (dps enchants)
245 bloodbath belt (dps enchants)
245 Tier pants (full EH enchants - but I should change that)
245 Twins-10 boots (full EH enchants)
Bloodshed band
245 ToC25 Strength dps ring
Mirror of Truth
DMC:G
Libram of the Sacred Shield
258 Crystal Plated Vanguard
251 DPS axe from ICC10

I think that's right, but it's from memory. Hitcapped for heroics, expertise capped for heroics without glyph (actually well over, because this set was built out of my 6k dps while tanking set, which is expertise hardcapped), BV capped for ShoR, and a fair bit of crit.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Wrathy » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:47 am

My second spec is also my heroic spec / Anub'arak HM spec, and I'll try to log out in my DPS gear today. If not, I think i wear a similar set up to Meloree.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:21 pm

I'm currently logged out in my DPS tanking set. If you see me wearing two defense trinkets then you know I'm wearing it. My "dps" numbers are pretty similar to Khael's if not slightly higher. My highest DPS for a run (including bosses) was 4.8k. There are a few instances like VH that suck for this and some that don't. ToC is a good one, just reset recount after the horse event.

My personal unbuffed stats are:

Tank Stats
32274 Health.
25801 armor.
535 defense.
21.4% dodge.
20% parry.
10.4% block
~2450 block value (from memory)

DPS Stats
1895 strength
4259 attack power
223 hit rating
25 expertise.

I'm really not sure how much DPS I do on just the trash, I tend to not look very closely at the numbers until near the end of the run. But on bosses 3.5k seems about right I suppose.

I posted in other threads because I really enjoy doing this and trying to max out my capabilities.

I've made some crazy choices as you can tell by my health levels. Things such as strength gems in Triumph tanking pants + dps leg armor, as well as Beserking on my weapon.

This is the screenshot I posted in the success forums where I finally broke 4.5k. I have since done slightly better.

Image

I have a question for you guys that also like to do this. What are the best 4 party members to have for the most possible damage? I can certainly say that having a Warrior and a DK are the two most noticeable. They probably add almost a thousand dps just by having them in the group. I also like having a druid healer as I seem to have more mana at hand with them around (or a shaman).
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Discus » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:30 pm

Another inspirational Maintankadin thread thanks. I was quite pleased when i hit 3k in heroics but now I know there's far more I can do, I never thought to be cocky enough to swap in a few Ret pieces.

What limits my dps now is not so much gear, but better geared dps who down the trash before I can do much damage. I guess the answer is pull more and hope I can hold them all.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Holyblaze » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:07 pm

I never have issues with aggro. I pul 5-10 whenever possible. haha If I have AoE DPS Monsters, I just tell them from the start that to let me get 2 Conc ticks and let them fly. haha go go 10-15 min FoS & PoS Heroics!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Dreamcrusher » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:17 pm

I was doing 7k on ICC10 trash packs during rep runs, normal aoe, one pack at a time. I could probably get it higher. I was still wearing mostly all of my tanking gear and I'm far from best in slot [43k unbuffed and my guild hasn't killed H Anub :(] I believe I only swapped out a stam trinket for Greatness, libram for the +200 str one, and my tank weapon for http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50412 - I fckin LOVE that thing!


I used that same set to tank twin valks yesterday in toc25 and did 3800 DPS.... but apparently I was still using Seal of Justice. /facedesk
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Kihra » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:23 pm

I do ~12k DPS on the pre-Marrowgar ICC25 trash and solo tank it.... and that was with a 251 Frost Cleaver. Now that I have a 264 Bloodvenom Blade, I can't wait to go back in there and try for 13k. :)
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Khael » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:10 am

Nice to see some life in this topic :)
First of all thanks for all the replies ! Appreciate it.

Theck Meloree and Wrathy i managed to catch a glimpse at your "dps-tanking" gear on armory while you had it equipped at some point during the day. Thanks, what i dont understand tbh, but maybee its me, is it dosent seem like your willing to "push" the issue as much as i maybee was expecting, switching 2 trinekts and a weapon is not excatly dps-gearing imo. (I dont say this to be rude just that i thought you guys would have more "extreme" setups)

I bring this issue up because of the proposed 7k dps statement, and from what i could see my "dps-stats" were actually higer then yours Meloree, yet i cant do 7k dps on a single target fight.

I made this post originally to try and share some idears with you the paladins out there and see what sort of gear people are using and what sort of sacrifices you are making to boost your dps.

For instance, is it worth changing your meta gem from a block value to the 3% increased crit damage one? how aobut shoulder enchants ? Leg enchant or even head enchant ?

Or take it one step further as "Inthedrops" has done and I have considered doing aswell.. use defense trinkets and go with more retribution gear ? surely the gain in using an armor piece with dps stats would be higher then using a Mirror's Truth over say Onyxia trinket to cover the defense loss..?

To compare here are my stats :
1930 Str
200 Agi
2904 Stam -> 35794 Health

26756 Armor
541 Defense (I use this setup for 25 normal raids aswell)
22,39% Dodge
20,59% Parry
12,35% Block
3059 Block value with Sanctuary up

DPS Stats
572,4 DPS with Frostblade Hatchet
4253 Attack Power
257 Hit rating
24,8 % Crit
11 Expertise
(would i be better off using Bonebreaker Scepter for the higher dps, although faster spped?)

I know my Expertise is low but i cant find a good way to upgrade it without nerfing my other stats too much, any advice is welcome offcourse.

I really am enjoying tinkering around with gear setups like this and have no issues with enchanting or gemming stuff in wierd ways just to try it out.

Hope for some more awsome feedback and idears on how we can push the dps even higher !

Cheers
~Khael

PS: If anyone of you math gods out there could help answer a question for me (Theck maybee:)?)
What would give the higher dps, im not thinking threat although thats part of it ofc, of the weapons :
Frostblade Hatchet http://www.wowhead.com/?item=48043 vs Bonebreaker Scepter http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50760
and
Frost Giant's Cleaver http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50787 vs Quel'Delar, Cunning of the Shadows http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50046
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby halabar » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:27 am

So I guess what I'm really missing is a good dps weapon to pull this off. I tried with my tanking weapon, and there wasn't a difference using SoC on the trash.

Just gotta figure out how I'm going to get a decent dps 1Her. There's always a rouge, DK, or hunter sucking them up.

Has anyone tried going to a 2Her?
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:51 am

Can't use ShoR or HotR w/ a 2her, so unless you were ret-tanking it'd be a waste of time. My personal goal is a QD, but a Nighttime would work well also.
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