+10def vs 6stam

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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Kihra » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:59 pm

Varuk wrote:
Kihra wrote:As has been said before, the goal of EH gearing is to survive the worst burst damage of a fight.
Except we cheat. We don't have to survive the worst burst damage of a fight. We just need to keep it from happening more than once every 2 minutes.


And then not die afterwards. I wouldn't assume that AD is a free save, especially with the faster boss swing timers we've been seeing in ICC. It's entirely possible in ICC hard modes that AD could proc and you could still end up going down. We'll have to wait and see. :)

Varuk wrote:I would be amazed if the minimum safe health level on hard modes was above 55k for us. Seriously surprised.


Yeah that number sounds about right. I know I walked into TOGC with 49-50k health raid buffed the first week and had no EH issues in the entire instance. Then again AD had not yet been nerfed that first week. :)

The magic number for TOGC25 seemed to be about 50k for a warrior tank (and therefore a bit less for us). I think you are right that the best geared paladin tanks right now (with 60k health raid buffed) are probably already over the EH threshold for many of the upcoming hard mode fights.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Meloree » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:38 pm

Kihra wrote:The magic number for TOGC25 seemed to be about 50k for a warrior tank (and therefore a bit less for us). I think you are right that the best geared paladin tanks right now (with 60k health raid buffed) are probably already over the EH threshold for many of the upcoming hard mode fights.


I sincerely hope not.

Plagueworks has me convinced that Blizzard is no longer in the habit of tossing out freebies. I'm expecting hardmodes to actually be hard, as opposed to the joke that was ToGC.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Kihra » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:44 pm

Meloree wrote:
Kihra wrote:The magic number for TOGC25 seemed to be about 50k for a warrior tank (and therefore a bit less for us). I think you are right that the best geared paladin tanks right now (with 60k health raid buffed) are probably already over the EH threshold for many of the upcoming hard mode fights.


I sincerely hope not.

Plagueworks has me convinced that Blizzard is no longer in the habit of tossing out freebies. I'm expecting hardmodes to actually be hard, as opposed to the joke that was ToGC.


Oh I expect them to be really hard. I'm just not expecting EH to be the big issue *for paladins* on those hard modes. Our EH lead is so substantial over the other plate tanks that it's much easier for us to exceed the minimum fight requirements in terms of EH.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Varuk » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:43 pm

The other thing is the armor. We're gaining 8k armor between ToGC gear and full 264 gear. If 54k health and 45k armor isn't enough EH to tank these hard modes for us then other plate tanks with 60k health and 40k armor won't be able to tank them either.

If there's a fight where, in order for us to kill it, we have to gear maximum stamina just to survive, then I state that no other tank class would be able to survive it even with maximum stamina. Maybe bears. Maybe. We have such an obscene EH lead over the other tanks before even considering the freebie death save of AD that, barring a nerf or a boss so overtuned that only paladins can tank it we won't need that level of health.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Wrathy » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:51 pm

The problem with your comments about our massive effective health advantage more than likely does not take into account cooldown usage. Now while I will agree that we are the cream of the crop when it comes to surprise burst damage, our AD is about as good as it gets. However when it comes to planned burst, druids with their T10 four piece set bonus will have a significant advantage at total damage taken reduction with a 20% uptime of a significant damage reduction.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Kihra » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:36 pm

Wrathy wrote:The problem with your comments about our massive effective health advantage more than likely does not take into account cooldown usage. Now while I will agree that we are the cream of the crop when it comes to surprise burst damage, our AD is about as good as it gets. However when it comes to planned burst, druids with their T10 four piece set bonus will have a significant advantage at total damage taken reduction with a 20% uptime of a significant damage reduction.


Planned burst is so easily accounted for though. You have a whole host of external cooldowns to choose from in addition to your own, so EH really isn't much of a factor for planned burst situations.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Meloree » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:51 pm

We also have a massive disadvantage in duration of cooldown coverage. If we stack EH against that, we're one of the sturdiest tanks, even against preditable burst - because any raid cooldown used is just that much more effective - and if we trade away the advantage for other stats, then we become one of the most burstable tanks.

We'll see what hardmodes bring. Right now, I'm generally choosing 6 stam over 10 defense or agility.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Kihra » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:01 pm

Meloree wrote:We also have a massive disadvantage in duration of cooldown coverage. If we stack EH against that, we're one of the sturdiest tanks, even against preditable burst - because any raid cooldown used is just that much more effective - and if we trade away the advantage for other stats, then we become one of the most burstable tanks.

We'll see what hardmodes bring. Right now, I'm generally choosing 6 stam over 10 defense or agility.


Yeah, I have no plans to change how I enchant/gem. However I'm probably going to wear 4pc T10 instead of 2pc T10 plus the bonus armor pieces. While I know I'd have more EH with the bonus armor pieces, I am confident I'll take less overall damage in the 4pc on fights, have access to what is essentially an extra "trinket" in the 4pc bonus, and still have more EH than any other plate tank that wears 2pc T10 plus the bonus armor pieces.

I've brought up this idea of comparative effective health before, but basically if my EH exceeds the EH of a warrior in max EH gear, then I'm going to be fine against any unpredictable burst (barring the fight just being tuned wrong).
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Meloree » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:53 pm

Kihra wrote:I've brought up this idea of comparative effective health before, but basically if my EH exceeds the EH of a warrior in max EH gear, then I'm going to be fine against any unpredictable burst (barring the fight just being tuned wrong).


Yeah, and I'm right with you. Where I think we begin to differ is that you're valuing "surplus" EH differently than I do, I think. There's certainly going to be an achievable "EH minimum" for any given fight, one that we might well already exceed, but that doesn't mean there aren't rewards beyond the minimum, largely in being able to cover up imperfect play, disconnects, etc. I'm unconvinced that T10 competes with offset pieces at the 264 ilvl, in any capacity.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Kihra » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:13 pm

Meloree wrote:
Kihra wrote:I've brought up this idea of comparative effective health before, but basically if my EH exceeds the EH of a warrior in max EH gear, then I'm going to be fine against any unpredictable burst (barring the fight just being tuned wrong).


Yeah, and I'm right with you. Where I think we begin to differ is that you're valuing "surplus" EH differently than I do, I think. There's certainly going to be an achievable "EH minimum" for any given fight, one that we might well already exceed, but that doesn't mean there aren't rewards beyond the minimum, largely in being able to cover up imperfect play, disconnects, etc. I'm unconvinced that T10 competes with offset pieces at the 264 ilvl, in any capacity.


Yeah, you have to decide how much you value surplus EH, and I'm certainly not advocating only having the bare minimum needed to survive burst. You want some wiggle room. Without the AD death save, I'd be inclined to agree with you that paring down EH during progression might not be the best idea.

The AD death save changes my thinking a bit though. Sacrificing surplus EH while still staying well above the expected minimum EH threshold seems ok to me, especially if the net result is less overall damage taken. The AD death save covers any flukes where you take more burst than expected, and the 4pc bonus is actually more interesting during many "Oh crap!" situations than simply having more EH would be.

At my expected gear level, the T10 chest will result in less overall damage taken than the bonus armor chest (even if it is RNG-based). It also has very high Strength on it, which is nice for threat. Once you drop the bonus armor chest you need the expertise on the T10 legs.

The 4pc bonus obviously provides a significant additional damage reduction, even if it is avoidance-based.

Also, there's no next tier of content to worry about. This is the last tier. If you're over the EH threshold that's it. Traditionally tanks just kept stacking EH in past tiers because they were preparing for the next tier. This time, though, there's no reason not to decrease your EH as you master the fights as long as you stay well over the minimum required.

TLDR: This is how I justify tanking in a skirt.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Varuk » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:24 am

More EH beyond the minimum does make you easier to heal, for certain. However, speaking as a MT healer for 3.0, 3.1, and large portions of our 3.2 progression, avoidance definitely has a larger impact on a tank's "healability" than EH beyond the minimum. A 5% avoidance difference is night and day (within the same class - druids have many attributes that decrease their DTPS to make up for their lack of avoidance) to a good MT healer, and honestly as a MT healer if my tank already had the minimum to survive I'd rather he had an additional 5% avoidance than even 5k additional health.

By increasing avoidance and reducing DTPS you decrease the amount of time during which your healers must remain ramped up, spamming their hardest heals on you. After a point, they'll only need to toss occasional HLs on you and for the most part FoL + random hots keeps you up just fine even on decently hard hitting bosses. This results in less stress on healers, the possibility of swapping healers to DPS, and overall cleaner kills.

That said, I don't think 4pcT10 is worth wearing even if we're over the EH minimum. Armor is an incredibly efficient stat at increasing your "healability" because it acts as roughly 2/3rd to 3/4th as much EHP as stamina per item point and the same ratio of DTPS reduction as avoidance values per item point. It is amazingly efficient at increasing your healability and I just don't see any benefit for swapping those bonus armor pieces out for 4pcT10.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Wrathy » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:41 am

Varuk wrote:More EH beyond the minimum does make you easier to heal, for certain. However, speaking as a MT healer for 3.0, 3.1, and large portions of our 3.2 progression, avoidance definitely has a larger impact on a tank's "healability" than EH beyond the minimum. A 5% avoidance difference is night and day (within the same class - druids have many attributes that decrease their DTPS to make up for their lack of avoidance) to a good MT healer, and honestly as a MT healer if my tank already had the minimum to survive I'd rather he had an additional 5% avoidance than even 5k additional health.


This is how my healers felt when we were in ToTGC and had our large debate On Progression MT gearing. I was all for the trade in a bit of stamina for 5% more avodiance, and I believe that this philosophy was derived from my days of healing in sunwell. However we have proven that for progression EH out performs all. Now that is with the caveat that you take into account the bleeds, magic, and unavoidable damage. So far we haven't seen that much that is unavoidable, however we have seen a lot of stray magic damage. While this damage doesn't hit too hard, it contributes to the overall burst.

Kihra wrote:Also, there's no next tier of content to worry about. This is the last tier. If you're over the EH threshold that's it. Traditionally tanks just kept stacking EH in past tiers because they were preparing for the next tier. This time, though, there's no reason not to decrease your EH as you master the fights as long as you stay well over the minimum required.

TLDR: This is how I justify tanking in a skirt.


Apparently I have found an ally in the debate against the great Meloree! J/K However, Kihra reminds me of all the debates Meloree and I had about EH stacking. This was my general philosophy in ToTGC. Now that we are in ICC with Chill of the Throne, I am in the stam stacking camp, however so far I haven't seen anything to validate that. On the other hand, we have not seen any true progression Hard Modes, so we have yet to see true burst damage which is threatening.

When we get to that point, I may necro the old thread to start up the discussion again. Although, the math on relative gains of damage reduction at 50% avoidance are pretty compelling to stay with stamina.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Kihra » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:57 am

Varuk wrote:That said, I don't think 4pcT10 is worth wearing even if we're over the EH minimum. Armor is an incredibly efficient stat at increasing your "healability" because it acts as roughly 2/3rd to 3/4th as much EHP as stamina per item point and the same ratio of DTPS reduction as avoidance values per item point. It is amazingly efficient at increasing your healability and I just don't see any benefit for swapping those bonus armor pieces out for 4pcT10.


I don't disagree with armor's effectiveness. Once you factor in Chill of the Throne, it's obviously more effective per percentage of mitigation than each percentage of avoidance is at reducing your overall damage taken.

However a tank in T10 4pc, especially given how many of the ICC fights work so far, is typically going to take less overall damage than a tank in those 2 extra bonus armor pieces.

The T10 4pc is really nice if you are well over the EH minimum needed for a fight already. Many of the ICC fights so far involve tank swaps that significantly increase the uptime of the T10 4pc as a percentage of your total time spent tanking the boss. Other fights have well-known danger areas where the T10 4pc is useful.

I'm planning to wear the T10 4pc and then the bonus armor belt, neck, gloves, cloak, ring, etc., so it's not like I don't value bonus armor. :)

I don't mind giving up a little bit of mitigation from armor and some stamina from those pieces, though, since I view the extra EH as unnecessary surplus that pales in comparison to the additional avoidance from the 4pc bonus.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Kihra » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:31 pm

Wrathy wrote:Apparently I have found an ally in the debate against the great Meloree! J/K However, Kihra reminds me of all the debates Meloree and I had about EH stacking. This was my general philosophy in ToTGC. Now that we are in ICC with Chill of the Throne, I am in the stam stacking camp, however so far I haven't seen anything to validate that. On the other hand, we have not seen any true progression Hard Modes, so we have yet to see true burst damage which is threatening.


LOL I don't think any of us are really disagreeing with each other all that much. I'm a firm believer in Effective Health, and I stamina stack like everyone else. I just think people underestimate how OP paladins are right now.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Meloree » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:05 pm

Kihra wrote:
Wrathy wrote:Apparently I have found an ally in the debate against the great Meloree!


LOL I don't think any of us are really disagreeing with each other all that much. I'm a firm believer in Effective Health, and I stamina stack like everyone else. I just think people underestimate how OP paladins are right now.


Different routes to similar places, in the end. I tend to stack EH very aggressively, until I have some idea of the actual tank requirements for a fight. In most cases, I've ended up staying with the EH set until things are on farm enough to trade EH for threat. Avoidance has generally been somewhat irrelevant. I've looked for fights where I wanted more, and haven't really found any. I'm totally prepared to swap in avoidance, though. I'm still looking for reasons to justify the oh-so-lovely avoidance set that sits in the bags and rots.

Also, I hate tanking in a skirt. Any kind of rationale that can keep me wearing pants is win. I'm about to need to rationalize my way out of Cataclysmic Chestguard, though, it's porn-plate.
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