+10def vs 6stam

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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Varuk » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:08 pm

Kihra wrote:
Wrathy wrote:Apparently I have found an ally in the debate against the great Meloree! J/K However, Kihra reminds me of all the debates Meloree and I had about EH stacking. This was my general philosophy in ToTGC. Now that we are in ICC with Chill of the Throne, I am in the stam stacking camp, however so far I haven't seen anything to validate that. On the other hand, we have not seen any true progression Hard Modes, so we have yet to see true burst damage which is threatening.


LOL I don't think any of us are really disagreeing with each other all that much. I'm a firm believer in Effective Health, and I stamina stack like everyone else. I just think people underestimate how OP paladins are right now.
This. In my opinion, we're in a unique position where, in order for a fight to test our EHP so greatly that we need to stack full stamina to survive it such a fight would be untankable by DKs and Warriors. I don't expect that to really happen; if it does, I'll do a full regem and reenchant of course, but I'm not expecting such a fight to truly exist.

Also amen to Cataclysmic Chestguard. That thing is awesome.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby PsiVen » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:49 pm

Also, there's no next tier of content to worry about. This is the last tier. If you're over the EH threshold that's it. Traditionally tanks just kept stacking EH in past tiers because they were preparing for the next tier. This time, though, there's no reason not to decrease your EH as you master the fights as long as you stay well over the minimum required.


I disagree here for similar reasons to Meloree, I would imagine: there is never an EH maximum, only a minimum. There may be a threshold where the benefits of avoidance (less damage taken, less chance to be burst down) outweigh the diminishing benefit of more and more EH (more TTL, fewer possible burst down scenarios). But I don't think that time will come unless there is also a high effective avoidance minimum for the fight. Brutallus is the only boss in WoW history who really had such a thing. There are bosses where avoidance is powerful enough to count as EH (M'uru adds, Anub adds) and bosses where EH is really insignificant as you're in no danger of dying despite constant damage taken (any fight that splits off individual tanks and healers). But these are the exception, not the rule, and they came before the combined forces of Icecrown Radiance and avoidance DR decimated the ability to stack avoidance to a high level. I'm running normal ICC25 with 59.4k HP buffed and a good chunk of bonus armor, and I still see my health dip very low and trigger my Ardent Defender often. Maybe when I start to think to myself "is 70k really necessary? I don't think I've seen AD proc in months" I will start going the other way.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Varuk » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:19 pm

PsiVen wrote:
Also, there's no next tier of content to worry about. This is the last tier. If you're over the EH threshold that's it. Traditionally tanks just kept stacking EH in past tiers because they were preparing for the next tier. This time, though, there's no reason not to decrease your EH as you master the fights as long as you stay well over the minimum required.


I disagree here for similar reasons to Meloree, I would imagine: there is never an EH maximum, only a minimum. There may be a threshold where the benefits of avoidance (less damage taken, less chance to be burst down) outweigh the diminishing benefit of more and more EH (more TTL, fewer possible burst down scenarios). But I don't think that time will come unless there is also a high effective avoidance minimum for the fight. Brutallus is the only boss in WoW history who really had such a thing. There are bosses where avoidance is powerful enough to count as EH (M'uru adds, Anub adds) and bosses where EH is really insignificant as you're in no danger of dying despite constant damage taken (any fight that splits off individual tanks and healers). But these are the exception, not the rule, and they came before the combined forces of Icecrown Radiance and avoidance DR decimated the ability to stack avoidance to a high level. I'm running normal ICC25 with 59.4k HP buffed and a good chunk of bonus armor, and I still see my health dip very low and trigger my Ardent Defender often. Maybe when I start to think to myself "is 70k really necessary? I don't think I've seen AD proc in months" I will start going the other way.
It also has a lot to do with your healers. I've been running ICC with 50-54k health depending on my trinket setup for that fight and I haven't seen an AD proc once when we were actually doing the fight right. I mean, yeah, we tried to two-tank 25m Marrowgar once and for some reason the Lash damage wasn't spreading right and it ended up proc'ing and then I died, and the first time I jumped over on Gunship I let the captain stack up to almost 30 stacks of focused anger and it proc'd, but after fixing the obvious error I've never seen it since.

I mean, I can tank any boss in ICC right now with 50k health and not see a proc. If you're doing these same bosses with 59k and still seeing AD procs, either:
1. Our healers are of drastically different skill levels
or
2. My additional avoidance/armor is somehow saving me from deaths

Those are the only two conclusions I can see...
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Kihra » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:21 pm

PsiVen wrote:I disagree here for similar reasons to Meloree, I would imagine: there is never an EH maximum, only a minimum. There may be a threshold where the benefits of avoidance (less damage taken, less chance to be burst down) outweigh the diminishing benefit of more and more EH (more TTL, fewer possible burst down scenarios). But I don't think that time will come unless there is also a high effective avoidance minimum for the fight. Brutallus is the only boss in WoW history who really had such a thing. There are bosses where avoidance is powerful enough to count as EH (M'uru adds, Anub adds) and bosses where EH is really insignificant as you're in no danger of dying despite constant damage taken (any fight that splits off individual tanks and healers). But these are the exception, not the rule, and they came before the combined forces of Icecrown Radiance and avoidance DR decimated the ability to stack avoidance to a high level. I'm running normal ICC25 with 59.4k HP buffed and a good chunk of bonus armor, and I still see my health dip very low and trigger my Ardent Defender often. Maybe when I start to think to myself "is 70k really necessary? I don't think I've seen AD proc in months" I will start going the other way.


Again, I don't think we disagree that much. You obviously can't go wrong stacking EH forever. As long as your threat is fine, stacking a zillion EH is not going to be the wrong thing to do. For example I can tank heroics just fine in my max EH set, but it's obviously fun to drop down to a lower EH in order to massively increase threat and do more damage. :)

This is the only point I'm making: that the OPness of paladins allows you to shift your priorities away from EH earlier than you might think. If you really needed all that EH for a given encounter, then a warrior would literally be unable to tank the fight.

Anyway I didn't mean to focus this on avoidance. Threat would also be perfectly acceptable to stack. For example it's nice to be hit capped if you can spare the EH. All I'm saying is we have a tremendous EH advantage, and that does allow us to shift to a more balanced gear set more readily should we so choose.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Meloree » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:30 pm

Kihra wrote:
PsiVen wrote:I disagree here for similar reasons to Meloree, I would imagine: there is never an EH maximum, only a minimum. There may be a threshold where the benefits of avoidance (less damage taken, less chance to be burst down) outweigh the diminishing benefit of more and more EH (more TTL, fewer possible burst down scenarios). But I don't think that time will come unless there is also a high effective avoidance minimum for the fight. Brutallus is the only boss in WoW history who really had such a thing. There are bosses where avoidance is powerful enough to count as EH (M'uru adds, Anub adds) and bosses where EH is really insignificant as you're in no danger of dying despite constant damage taken (any fight that splits off individual tanks and healers). But these are the exception, not the rule, and they came before the combined forces of Icecrown Radiance and avoidance DR decimated the ability to stack avoidance to a high level. I'm running normal ICC25 with 59.4k HP buffed and a good chunk of bonus armor, and I still see my health dip very low and trigger my Ardent Defender often. Maybe when I start to think to myself "is 70k really necessary? I don't think I've seen AD proc in months" I will start going the other way.


Anyway I didn't mean to focus this on avoidance. Threat would also be perfectly acceptable to stack. For example it's nice to be hit capped if you can spare the EH. All I'm saying is we have a tremendous EH advantage, and that does allow us to shift to a more balanced gear set more readily should we so choose.


Well, fair enough, that's where my slider tends to be these days. "Enough EH? Cool, moar threat". Avoidance has tended to be a byproduct of gear in WotLK, something that came naturally, and was basically irrelevant to balancing gearsets. Also, PsiVen is smarter than me. I don't traditionally see AD proc, either, but I keep thinking that sooner or later, it's going to, in hardmodes.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Kihra » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:24 pm

PsiVen wrote:I'm running normal ICC25 with 59.4k HP buffed and a good chunk of bonus armor, and I still see my health dip very low and trigger my Ardent Defender often. Maybe when I start to think to myself "is 70k really necessary? I don't think I've seen AD proc in months" I will start going the other way.


I'm amazed you're seeing AD proc often with nearly 60k health. That has not been my experience at all. The only times I've seen AD proc in ICC, it's been a signal that I or someone else messed up (not the healers). For example, my co-tank not standing with me on Marrowgar or forgetting to pop a cooldown on 3-stack Festergut.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Wrathy » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:06 pm

Kihra wrote:
PsiVen wrote:I'm running normal ICC25 with 59.4k HP buffed and a good chunk of bonus armor, and I still see my health dip very low and trigger my Ardent Defender often. Maybe when I start to think to myself "is 70k really necessary? I don't think I've seen AD proc in months" I will start going the other way.


I'm amazed you're seeing AD proc often with nearly 60k health. That has not been my experience at all. The only times I've seen AD proc in ICC, it's been a signal that I or someone else messed up (not the healers). For example, my co-tank not standing with me on Marrowgar or forgetting to pop a cooldown on 3-stack Festergut.


Yeah I rarely see AD proc, and the best I can buff up to is 57.5k. Now 2k really isn't that big of a difference for an AD proc, but its still surprising. How many healers are you running with PsiVen?
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby kysu » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:01 pm

Ye Psiven I don't know why your AD is procing unless your talking about your health getting into the 30%. If AD procs for me my healers get a good ass chewing because they let me die.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby PsiVen » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:31 pm

Perhaps "often" is less than you might imagine, but it's usually a poor assumption that "it doesn't count" because it was a wipe/mistake. Surviving a hectic near-wipe is if anything more important than bolstering a stable, clean kill. Certainly I find those victories more satisfying :)

You make a good point though Kihra, we are seriously advantaged in the EH department. If anyone can afford to drop some EH for threat or avoidance when needed it's us; I guess my response would be that we are similarly advantaged in the threat department, matching other classes' threat even while focusing more on EH than they do. Generally I would say that I value EH above all else and take threat as a given, just as DPS classes value DPS stats above all else and take survival as a given. Exceptions only prove the rule.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Varuk » Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:02 pm

Well, on the topic of AD procs during mistakes/wipes, does any stat really help you? I would argue that for most of those scenarios avoidance would help more than stamina would. Still, for the most part on a mistake or wipe or enrage, you're most likely going to take so much damage it won't matter what you gear for and it'll proc no matter what. For that reason I don't think it should be particularly relevant in the argument of how we should be gearing ourselves.
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