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Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby Forfeit » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:02 pm

Hightin-Uldaman wrote:I've been reading these forums for a very very long time but I've never posted but thought this was a worthwile topic to add to. On heroics I typically ignore Avenger's. Its a mana hog and taunt does the job just fine. I taunt hammer shield consecrate once judge hammer again then let the mobs die. Divine Plea refreshes itself for massive mana gains. One thing I saw on your armory you are hitable which will also cause mana issues.


I am sure this is a dumb question but ... The reason this would cause mana problems is it stands in the way of BoS procs? I read this line then kept reading the thread intending not to ask about it. Alas my will power is not strong I suppose.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby bashef » Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:30 am

The only way being hittable would have an effect on your mana returns would be via BoS; however, (without checking the armoury) unless you're wearing PvP gear to get uncrittable or something your gear will have so much avoidance that you can't possibly be far off unhittable (I'd love to see someone put together a tanking set comprised of 100% tank gear that was more than about 10% off unhittable with HS up).

It's safe to say that even at 10% off, the effect this would have on your mana gains would be negligible, and that's even before you count Redoubt which (especially on trash) will push you over the unhittable cap a fair amount of the time.

I no longer have a single piece of gear below ilevel 245; I tank heroics with SoV without serious mana issues. As others have said, the key is smart use of consecrate (it usually gets left out entirely on a boss, big pulls you can consecrate liberally), judging wisdom, and keeping DP as much as possible. Don't seal twist, or even worse use SoW - the threat loss is huge and it's entirely unnecessary.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:19 pm

Forfeit wrote:
Hightin-Uldaman wrote:I've been reading these forums for a very very long time but I've never posted but thought this was a worthwile topic to add to. On heroics I typically ignore Avenger's. Its a mana hog and taunt does the job just fine. I taunt hammer shield consecrate once judge hammer again then let the mobs die. Divine Plea refreshes itself for massive mana gains. One thing I saw on your armory you are hitable which will also cause mana issues.


I am sure this is a dumb question but ... The reason this would cause mana problems is it stands in the way of BoS procs? I read this line then kept reading the thread intending not to ask about it. Alas my will power is not strong I suppose.

Actually the criticism is sort of off-base anyway. Being hittable isn't a decrease in mana regen, it's an increase. Spiritual attunement, even with 1 point, is far more effective at returning mana than BoSanc is.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby Forfeit » Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:46 pm

theckhd wrote:
Forfeit wrote:
Hightin-Uldaman wrote:I've been reading these forums for a very very long time but I've never posted but thought this was a worthwile topic to add to. On heroics I typically ignore Avenger's. Its a mana hog and taunt does the job just fine. I taunt hammer shield consecrate once judge hammer again then let the mobs die. Divine Plea refreshes itself for massive mana gains. One thing I saw on your armory you are hitable which will also cause mana issues.


I am sure this is a dumb question but ... The reason this would cause mana problems is it stands in the way of BoS procs? I read this line then kept reading the thread intending not to ask about it. Alas my will power is not strong I suppose.

Actually the criticism is sort of off-base anyway. Being hittable isn't a decrease in mana regen, it's an increase. Spiritual attunement, even with 1 point, is far more effective at returning mana than BoSanc is.


Thank you for clearing up that I am not as crazy as you think I are.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby Hightin-Uldaman » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:25 pm

theckhd wrote:
Forfeit wrote:
Hightin-Uldaman wrote:I've been reading these forums for a very very long time but I've never posted but thought this was a worthwile topic to add to. On heroics I typically ignore Avenger's. Its a mana hog and taunt does the job just fine. I taunt hammer shield consecrate once judge hammer again then let the mobs die. Divine Plea refreshes itself for massive mana gains. One thing I saw on your armory you are hitable which will also cause mana issues.


I am sure this is a dumb question but ... The reason this would cause mana problems is it stands in the way of BoS procs? I read this line then kept reading the thread intending not to ask about it. Alas my will power is not strong I suppose.

Actually the criticism is sort of off-base anyway. Being hittable isn't a decrease in mana regen, it's an increase. Spiritual attunement, even with 1 point, is far more effective at returning mana than BoSanc is.


Maybe my math is wrong but

Hit 3000 Mana Pool 5500
BV 1500 BOS Return 110
Swing 1 sec
Fight 1 min Hit-BV 1500
Hits 60
Hit Table
Miss 0.1 6
Dodge 0.21 12.6
Parry 0.18 10.8
Block 0.15 9 13500
HS 0.3 18 27000
0.94 56.4 Total DMG
Full hit 0.06 3.6 5400 45900

BoS Hits 50.4 5544
SA Mana 2295
Total Mana Gained: 7839

Hit 3000 Mana Pool 5500
BV 1500 BoS Return 110
Swing 1 sec
Fight 1 min Hit-BV 1500
Hits 60
Hit Table
Miss 0.1 6
Dodge 0.25 15
Parry 0.2 12
Block 0.15 9 13500
HS 0.3 18 27000
1 60 Total DMG
Full hit 0 0 0 40500

BoS Hits 54 5940
SA Mana 2025
Total Mana Gained: 7965

If he was 2/2 SA then yes it would grant more mana. Add in Kings GoW or Int and BoS gets further ahead. Also remember he was asking heroics not raids. In a raid setting 1/2 SA provides more mana gain hands down. The other part about being unhitable allows bigger pulls which is even more mana gain.

Edit: Excel formatting doesnt transfer over very well.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:37 pm

I think I see what you're trying to do there, but the formatting makes it hard to read. However, the calculation is very simple. BoSanc returns 2% of your base mana, and SA returns 5% of damage taken (assuming you get healed, obviously). So for a hit to give you more mana back than a dodge (for example):

hit_size >= 0.02 * base_mana / 0.05 = 0.4 * base_mana

For your value of 5500 mana, that works out to a hit size of 2200 damage. That's still pretty reasonable for a heroic, at least for some of the harder-hitting trash. Even in your example, the difference came out to be around 130 mana out of nearly 8000, so it's not a very noticeable effect either way.

Of course, the best scenario is when you block, because then you get BoSanc mana plus the SA mana from the unblocked portion. So there's maybe an argument for block-capping there.

But in reality, the mana regen difference gained or lost by block-capping is going to be pretty negligible in heroics. You'll see a much bigger change by making intelligent decisions about the active portion of your mana management - how you pull, how many mobs you pull, which abilities you use and when, etc.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby Falconcry » Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:59 am

There are sometimes I get a little lazy about my Divine Plea button and end a fight in H VH at >12% mana. When this happens I just use Itemrack to swap to my Holy set and back to Tank. I think of it as a warlock lifetap and that rejuv the tree is putting on you isnt going to waste on the pull. SA brings you up as you fight and you have more then enough to start your rotation.

Be careful that you are the one that starts fights though. A ToT/MD happy DPS could have you tanking the boss critable.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby srpnt » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:21 pm

I'm far from experienced, but this is an issue I wrangled with a lot over the last month. I may have the wrong answer, but this worked for me.

My solution was to enchant my chest +10 all stats, slap a nightmare tear in my gloves, and use the Seal of Command glyph. The slight increase in INT gives me a bit more mana back from DP and the SoComm glyph gives me 8% mana every 9 seconds. I replace SoComm with Judgement for raiding, so I keep a stack of each in the bank.

Randoms are mostly trash pulls, and bosses don't tend to give me mana problems. I find that it's easier to keep DP up during most boss fights, and that the additional damage means more mana from SA.

I find that replacing Judgement with SoComm means I can Consecrate more often, which is important for both DPS and TPS. That helps with both ends of the random dungeon finder spectrum - if I get bad dps I can still pull 3-4k and get through randoms quickly, and if I get exceptional dps they don't have to hold back because of my threat control so I can get through randoms very quickly.

I'd also recommend using Omen to determine when you have enough threat that targets can never be pulled off of you. Since threat is at worst a 1:1 ratio with damage done for DPS classes, you can stop hitting things when your threat value is 75% of their max HP and go on to pull the next pack while the DPS finish them off. This also gives you an opportunity to start generating threat on the next pack before that 7K warlock can crit a Seed of Corruption 2s into the pull.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby Florisia » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:17 am

This used to be a pretty annoying issue for me. I agree with a few of the solutions(go 'free form' instead of macroing, take out x/y from your attacks, etc.)

My best approach to this(aside from chain or over pulling) is do what you'd normally do when tanking things. When the difference between your threat and the threat of your next highest dps exceeds the remaining health of what you're trying to kill, stop using skills and just hit melee on it to let Divine Plea+Remaining time on Judgement of Wisdom recover some of your lost mana. I normally do this in random pugs where I don't trust the healer to be able to keep up with chain pulls.

My favorite approach is over pulling or chain pulling. I make a game out of it. Read: Heroic dungeon time trials. Think the best I've ever cleared Nexus in was about 12 minutes. Wouldn't suggest it with a full pug group, but if you've got a guild that needs their daily random, it's fun.

You could also take a party made of you, 2 rogues and a hunter and whatever healer, preferably one that can drop threat in some way. Tell them to constantly misdirect/tricks and aoe their hearts out and stand there and look pretty. No more mana woes. :)

As a side note, I want to find an addon that makes a ghost image of your party in previous dungeon runs run through the instance with you.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby Ardrhyst » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:55 am

Florisia wrote:This used to be a pretty annoying issue for me. I agree with a few of the solutions(go 'free form' instead of macroing, take out x/y from your attacks, etc.)

My best approach to this(aside from chain or over pulling) is do what you'd normally do when tanking things. When the difference between your threat and the threat of your next highest dps exceeds the remaining health of what you're trying to kill, stop using skills and just hit melee on it to let Divine Plea+Remaining time on Judgement of Wisdom recover some of your lost mana. I normally do this in random pugs where I don't trust the healer to be able to keep up with chain pulls.

My favorite approach is over pulling or chain pulling. I make a game out of it. Read: Heroic dungeon time trials. Think the best I've ever cleared Nexus in was about 12 minutes. Wouldn't suggest it with a full pug group, but if you've got a guild that needs their daily random, it's fun.

You could also take a party made of you, 2 rogues and a hunter and whatever healer, preferably one that can drop threat in some way. Tell them to constantly misdirect/tricks and aoe their hearts out and stand there and look pretty. No more mana woes. :)

As a side note, I want to find an addon that makes a ghost image of your party in previous dungeon runs run through the instance with you.


Playing the time trial game is the only way I can keep my sanity running heroics these days. Do it with pugs, because it's even more fun. Drag them if you have to. The excitement is in the challenge.

Also, CoS is the bane of my existence.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:27 pm

Either I'm just a bad, or you guys are way overthinking this.

For heroics, I swap out one of my stam trinkets for the 128-Int trinket. As long as I use Plea, I have no more mana issues. I can still auto-pilot my way through the run with a full 969 rotation and no worries.

The only danger is that you might log out with that trinket equippend and have some idiot think you're bad.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby sahiel » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:55 pm

It really is this simple for me, running low on mana? Pull more.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:56 pm

sahiel wrote:It really is this simple for me, running low on mana? Pull more.


That's a good trick in VH - can I have your secret? Point being you can't always pull another group. Int trinket FTW.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby Alixander » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:21 pm

Koatanga wrote:
sahiel wrote:It really is this simple for me, running low on mana? Pull more.


That's a good trick in VH - can I have your secret? Point being you can't always pull another group. Int trinket FTW.
Thank you!

The advice for pulling more is one of the ones I hate the most for Koatanga's exact point. For a few reasons it could end up being bad advice. Instances where pulling additional packs is just impossible is the first, Violet Hold not being the only one... The other two obvious ones are CoS and HoR, with FoS getting a nod due to how spread out all the packs are, not to mention casters all over the place.

Another situation where this comes about is if you are running with a badly geared healer (even more so if done so while you are not yet well geared). In order to keep up your mana pool for a full rotation, you need to be recieving a certain amount of health per second. Sure you could pull more, but that might push them beyond the point where they could heal you, and it doesn't matter how much mana you have after you've wiped the party because you were impatient.

If mana is really an issue, then try taking off a piece of gear. Start swapping stuff out for more DPS heavy pieces, as long as you stay over the defense minimum. It won't leave you so you're taking a ton more damage, but it'll help and they will die faster. Another option is have a full supply of Intelligence Scrolls so when you're teamed up with something other than a Mage you can give yourself an INT buff so Divine Plea and Judgment of Wisdom gives more mana back.
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Re: Rate my tanking, and why am I always OOM nowerdays?

Postby Epimer » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:49 pm

Quoting myself from the first page of this very thread:

VH, though, requires some careful mana management. Knowing that I can't keep DP rolling the whole time, I'll save it for the portals which spawn only one mob, because BoSanc and SA returns are going to be minimal. I'll drink after each boss pull, and will go oom pretty much as Cyanigosa hits the floor (I like pretending to be an arcane mage). I'll only use Consecration on the 3-4 mob pulls where BoSanc mana returns allow it, and even then only once.


Intelligent use of your abilities is what constitutes actively managing your mana. Gimmick gear sets aren't necessary; you can do CoT or VH or anything else you like in your full MT set (I do) without going oom. You assess your incoming mana vs. your ability use and adjust accordingly.
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