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Icecrown Radiance

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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Manukai » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:43 pm

Looking to resurrect this post since people have had some time in ICC post production. Has anyone's opinions changed about avoidance and in particular gemming with dodge?

There has been much discussion, specifically in the Paladin area about agility > dodge. Does Icecrown Radiance change this discussion at all?

If in fact it is still better to stack EH vs. avoidance is Icecrown Radiance intended to make the content more challenging specifically for healers?
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Holyblaze » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:56 pm

I would also like to know the thoughts on this topic now that we have had a few weeks on it.

I have in my guild a SICK bear tank that is rerolling once he saw the -20% to Dodge. Our MT'ing Pally does not seem to have any issue thus far. I have not tanked this as I am Ret MS, so I just tank all the heroics; no wait times you see, and now I have collected some nice gears.

Anyone on this? :?
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:19 pm

I can't speak for everyone, but my opinion is still that Icecrown Radiance has no effect on gearing or gemming choices. That decision still comes down to the details of the encounter you're approaching. So far there's only one fight that actively rewards avoidance (Gunship Battle), and that fight is still tuned such that EH-gearing is a better route.

I suspect Meloree will be along shortly to agree with me.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Wrathy » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:10 pm

theckhd wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but my opinion is still that Icecrown Radiance has no effect on gearing or gemming choices. That decision still comes down to the details of the encounter you're approaching. So far there's only one fight that actively rewards avoidance (Gunship Battle), and that fight is still tuned such that EH-gearing is a better route.

I suspect Meloree will be along shortly to agree with me.

In before Meloree...

I agree completely with Theck. Really what it comes down to is that they have altered the boss mechanics to align with the chill of the throne debuf on you. If you favored avoidance before, you will still like it. If you favored stamina before, it is still great. We have beat this debate into the ground and it has come down to the following two things.

    Chill of the throne does not change your gearing philosophy at all.

    Geming and enchanting for stamina gives you the best relative gains while INSIDE ICC. The relative cost of going from 50 to 51% avoidance is higher than gaining equal itemization amounts of stamina.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:29 am

Saurfang also rewards avoidance a lot, since it'll throttle his bp generation from both his melee and his Mark damage. It'll also make the marked people last longer/easier to heal(depends on strat). Most damage from Marrowgar can also be avoided, which puts him at the "certainly good!" list. Given his melee doesn't usually kill tanks in less than 3 hits, extra avoidance can sure be less sweaty on the healer side if spikes go amok.


The fact people don't even consider "all his damage can be avoided" a good enough thing worries me.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Gavinas » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:21 am

The consensus in the Deathbringer Saurfang thread is that avoidance does not affect his bp generation or mark damage. See Kihra's posts here: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... &start=120.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Flex » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:31 am

Gavinas wrote:The consensus in the Deathbringer Saurfang thread is that avoidance does not affect his bp generation or mark damage. See Kihra's posts here: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... &start=120.


It does in a way, that fight didn't have a mark go off so the avoidance factor never came into play.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby repent » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:31 am

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by:

"avoidance" and how it can "throttle his bp generation from both his melee and his Mark damage"

"The fact people don't even consider "all his damage can be avoided" a good enough thing worries me."

As to the first quote, I probably don't understand the fight mechanics well enough to understand how avoidance on a tank affects his BP generation. I went with no added avoidance, used the ret libram, greatness, and 1-2 other dps pieces and in 10 man he never reached 1 mark and 25 man, and had only 1 mark. I know this is anecdotal, and therefore worthless, but Saurfang hit the tanks plenty and it nevery seemed to affect his runic bar at all. Maybe it was just too incremental to notice, or I misunderstand something about the fight mechanics(which I expect is the case).

As to the second quote, I don't understand what you mean.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Kihra » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:41 am

Flex wrote:
Gavinas wrote:The consensus in the Deathbringer Saurfang thread is that avoidance does not affect his bp generation or mark damage. See Kihra's posts here: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... &start=120.


It does in a way, that fight didn't have a mark go off so the avoidance factor never came into play.


Avoidance is irrelevant to BP generation and marks going off, which I've proven in other threads. Saurfang does not gain BP from melee attacks. Mark goes off every time Saurfang performs a melee attack, even if that attack is missed, dodged or parried by the tank. It is that negative effect that causes BP gain.
Last edited by Kihra on Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby rathe » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:51 am

At first I was also thinking of the gunship battle as an "avoidance is good" fight, since it should slow the way he stacks the buff. But on the 10-man version I was being healed through the stack at 32 or 35 which was probably a combination of avoiding, taking the hit, and an on the ball healer.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Kihra » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:43 am

rathe wrote:At first I was also thinking of the gunship battle as an "avoidance is good" fight, since it should slow the way he stacks the buff. But on the 10-man version I was being healed through the stack at 32 or 35 which was probably a combination of avoiding, taking the hit, and an on the ball healer.


It's hard to view it as an avoidance fight when you can leave the enemy ship at any time with no real drawback.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Alixander » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:46 am

Kihra wrote:It's hard to view it as an avoidance fight when you can leave the enemy ship at any time with no real drawback.
I'm guessing it's an "avoidance fight" for those who want to make "I'm on a boat!" easier.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Kihra » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:13 am

Alixander wrote:
Kihra wrote:It's hard to view it as an avoidance fight when you can leave the enemy ship at any time with no real drawback.
I'm guessing it's an "avoidance fight" for those who want to make "I'm on a boat!" easier.


Yeah except you don't really need avoidance for that either, since the fight is so undertuned. You can kill the enemy boat in 3 mages. A tank with reasonably high EH can just tank through all 3 mages, and even if you don't have that much EH or good cannoneers it's trivial to just split into two teams and swap after 2 mages.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Meloree » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:43 pm

theckhd wrote:I suspect Meloree will be along shortly to agree with me.


Wrathy wrote:In before Meloree...


I have been made redundant..

Snake-Aes wrote:The fact people don't even consider "all his damage can be avoided" a good enough thing worries me.


Well, it comes down to this: You can take less damage, and nobody will notice, or you can do more dps.

WotLK has basically made the trade into "EH or DPS", not "EH or Avoidance", in the general case. Gunship makes a case for avoidance, but as Theck pointed out, it tends to be more stable in EH gearing anyway. Blizzard may come across with a heavy-handed avoidance reward, like I assumed Deathbringer Saurfang was, until Kihra did all that work (Thanks, btw), but so far in Wrath, avoidance is essentially irrelevant to survival.

At least for Edge, avoidance doesn't even really affect the healing plan, because the healing plan doesn't really pay attention to throughput damage. There's a certain budget of throughput healing for any given fight, but it's typically built around cushioning unexpected burst, more than handling throughput damage, and as such it generally exceeds throughput damage by a fairly large factor. Increasing avoidance wouldn't make a significant impact on planned throughput healing, because it doesn't materially change the damage caused by unexpected burst. Conclusion: Avoidance is basically irrelevant as a survival stat. At best it's a secondary survival stat. So, "all this damage can be avoided" doesn't make avoidance any better.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby rathe » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:43 am

Kihra wrote:
Alixander wrote:
Kihra wrote:It's hard to view it as an avoidance fight when you can leave the enemy ship at any time with no real drawback.
I'm guessing it's an "avoidance fight" for those who want to make "I'm on a boat!" easier.


Yeah except you don't really need avoidance for that either, since the fight is so undertuned. You can kill the enemy boat in 3 mages. A tank with reasonably high EH can just tank through all 3 mages, and even if you don't have that much EH or good cannoneers it's trivial to just split into two teams and swap after 2 mages.
Right so I rescinded the idea stating it was probably a combination. Theres no doubt the fight mechanic rewards 'avoiding'. But most tanks will want to wear their EH sets.
I also think the fight would be trivialized more than the others without the radiance
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