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Icecrown Radiance

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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:18 pm

oldboyz wrote:-versus the other tank class : if we are all "nerf" the same way, fine!! if one class, by his specific tank mecanic is subject to be much more interesting than a pal, than it is bad and this this what we need to avoid :wink:

If any, dks are the only ones that may get shafted here, depending basically on how often they can actually use their Runestrike procs and how often it'll proc. They don't think it'll be a real problem so odds are it will, but not big enough to warrant a lightning-fast fix.
A few of our procs will change from "not doing nothing" to "doing something". namely redoubt procs will be the only situation where we can guarantee at least a block, and shield block got a lil boost on that same effect of guaranteeing a block. This, mind you, is only compared to what the bosses "would be like if radiance was never installed", so don't go around yelling "nerf warriors" and "stack block", or you will have your spleen reduced to chunky salsa before you can click holy shield.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Varuk » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:31 pm

@Snake-Aes

Okay, now we're getting on more even footing.

About the value of Shield Block Value, my chance to block in full BiS gear is going from 30% to 42% -- I had about 12% block rating pushed off the hit table because my avoidance was so high. I will be blocking almost exactly fourty percent more often after the change. You're right in that it can no longer be assumed as part of our EH like it currently can (at least until we get some SBR), but you (almost) never have to choose between shield stats and EH stats, it's usually a choice between avoidance stats and shield stats (and threat stats). Looking at it from a pure mitigation PoV (which is not necessarily the best way to look at it) avoidance stats will be mitigating roughly 40% less damage per point while SBV will mitigate roughly 40% more damage per point. SBV could very easily become a better stat for damage mitigation.

About the value of Shield Block Rating, yes, we get to treat it similar to how a warrior does, but better, because we can conceivably cap it in normal tanking gear. And once we cap it, we gain a huge chunk of EH, because our SBV becomes a guaranteed reduction. Initial thoughts about Icecrown Radiance is that it will most likely massively increase the value of EH. In my BiS TotGC gear I will be roughly 10% off from unhittable, meaning I'll have to trade about 200 avoidance rating for SBR to reach it. Wouldn't you agree that it's possible that the EH from being unhittable (plus potentially higher mitigation) could outweigh 200 points of avoidance?

It is very possible that one, or both, of those stats could outweigh avoidance because of Icecrown Radiance. I'm personally rooting for SBR and keeping an eye out for SBV. The question, in my eyes, is whether or not we'll actually be able to choose those stats or if we'll just get the same itemization as we did in TotC//TotGC.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby halabar » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:48 pm

So basically, the only real changes are...

1) "Wasted" BR that was falling off the table will no longer be wasted, and..

2) Reckoning will be a bit more valuable.


Since we still want dodge, and parry, our gearing choices don't change. (If they were taking away 20% of your dodge, then it would be different, but since it's a straight 20% reduction, nothing else changes).

Right?
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Meyrinn » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:51 pm

Wrathy wrote: With the current information we have, your gearing philosophies and methodology will not change with Chill of the Throne, only your avoidance in the raid zone will.


You're implying that your gearing philosophy is the same at 40% avoidance as it is at 60% avoidance?

Remember back when you were just entering Naxx and had 40% avoidance? Would you ever have gemmed for avoidance back then(other than to reach 540 Defense)?

I have to agree with Meloree on this. However, we have yet to see the values on ICC gear and that might change things. Nonetheless, day 1 in ICC I feel most tanks that didn't stack stamina will be stacking stamina.

The whole solution to the issue of extreme avoidances with Icewell Radiance is a cheap band aid with no elegance. Avoidance Ratings are on a DR curve, which work on a cost and diminish rate. Wouldn't it be possible to adjust the formulas so that those at extreme avoidances get hit more than those without? I realize it would allow extremely low avoidances to get free avoidance, but this would only effect obsolete instances. At some value the new curves would cross the old curves and that would relate to the point where there is no net loss in avoidance. Say perhaps work out the math so this happens around 50% avoidance? It also risks making the curve so steep that stamina becomes the only path again, but that can be resolved by perhaps making a stamina penalty from Icewell Radiance to balance off the cost value of the stats.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Digren » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:56 pm

theckhd wrote:
Nadir wrote:Doh, you're absolutely right. It'll lower the value of avoidance overall in terms of % damage taken but the relative values will stay constant as long as you have more than 20% raid buffed dodge.

Now there's an interesting question....

The "value" of dodge compared to parry is constant if you have more than 20% dodge raid-buffed. However, it's a piecewise function, because the "value" of dodge is 0 if you have, for example, 18% dodge raid-buffed, assuming your dodge is calculated with a max() function.

In other words, I'm assuming x dodge rating gives you max(base_dodge+dodge_dr(x)-20;0) dodge % after Icecrown Radiance, such that Icecrown Radiance can't reduce your dodge below 0%. Given that, if you had 18% dodge, adding a gem worth X% (where X<1 for argument's sake) dodge would give you no net effect (because max(18-20;0) is the same as max(18+X%-20;0), i.e. 0).

In that situation, you might naively never gem dodge, because it gives you no contribution while parry gives you something. One could extend this (again, naively) to say that in that situation, you should ignore dodge entirely and stack parry forever.

So the 'interesting question' is this: At what amount of parry rating do the higher DR coefficients on parry make stacking dodge from below 20% to above 20% worth doing?


Yes indeed, this was my first thought. Bear with me...

1. Drop all agility and dodge gems and enchants. Replace all with pure stamina or armor. Replace gear that provides dodge with gear that provides parry wherever possible, or expertise. Drop Anticipation. Replace with other defensive stats (i.e. spec into both ret and holy) or replace with threat stats (deeper ret).

2. Even with fixed raid buffs (kings, motw, etc.) a tank's raw dodge would be what? - 10%?

3. As you have considered, a tank in this case would have to stack an awfully lot of new dodge to get past the fact that the first 10% added would have absolutely no benefit. This makes the effective returns on dodge insanely low, because, for example, 850 dodge rating (a number I made up) would be required to go from 0% dodge to 2% dodge. Sure, only +100 dodge rating (another made up number) would go from 2% dodge to 7% dodge, but when viewed in its entirety 950 dodge rating still only nets 7% dodge, again reflecting very low total returns.

4. The relative value of parry is thus increased, as is the relative value defense (via miss and parry) and expertise (via reduced parry gib).

5. If someone found a gear set that allowed a tank to virtually ignore the Icecrown Radiance effect through stacking of alternative stats, I would expect Blizzard to nerf it quickly. They just don't like people finding crafty ways to use funny gear and funny specs to avoid a game mechanic.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:57 pm

Varuk wrote:@Snake-Aes

Okay, now we're getting on more even footing.

About the value of Shield Block Value, my chance to block in full BiS gear is going from 30% to 42% -- I had about 12% block rating pushed off the hit table because my avoidance was so high. I will be blocking almost exactly fourty percent more often after the change. You're right in that it can no longer be assumed as part of our EH like it currently can (at least until we get some SBR), but you (almost) never have to choose between shield stats and EH stats, it's usually a choice between avoidance stats and shield stats (and threat stats). Looking at it from a pure mitigation PoV (which is not necessarily the best way to look at it) avoidance stats will be mitigating roughly 40% less damage per point while SBV will mitigate roughly 40% more damage per point. SBV could very easily become a better stat for damage mitigation.

About the value of Shield Block Rating, yes, we get to treat it similar to how a warrior does, but better, because we can conceivably cap it in normal tanking gear. And once we cap it, we gain a huge chunk of EH, because our SBV becomes a guaranteed reduction. Initial thoughts about Icecrown Radiance is that it will most likely massively increase the value of EH. In my BiS TotGC gear I will be roughly 10% off from unhittable, meaning I'll have to trade about 200 avoidance rating for SBR to reach it. Wouldn't you agree that it's possible that the EH from being unhittable (plus potentially higher mitigation) could outweigh 200 points of avoidance?

It is very possible that one, or both, of those stats could outweigh avoidance because of Icecrown Radiance. I'm personally rooting for SBR and keeping an eye out for SBV. The question, in my eyes, is whether or not we'll actually be able to choose those stats or if we'll just get the same itemization as we did in TotC//TotGC.
What kind of setup puts you so far ahead past the combat table? I can only imagine a block-heavy set, which will hardly be favored since, avoidable or not, tank damage will still be huge and, as GC said, we can still expect a 2-shot gibber or two.



halabar wrote:So basically, the only real changes are...
1) "Wasted" BR that was falling off the table will no longer be wasted, and..
2) Reckoning will be a bit more valuable.

Since we still want dodge, and parry, our gearing choices don't change. (If they were taking away 20% of your dodge, then it would be different, but since it's a straight 20% reduction, nothing else changes).

Right?

<giggles> the first time I pointed this and said "Just like sunwell", I got lots of "this is not sunwell" hate.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Digren » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:03 pm

theckhd wrote:Plugging in numbers:
rating to percent conversion is f=45.25018692.

First of all, working backwards, Ddr=10 occurs at D=10.7836% dodge from all DR-sources, or 487.9607 rating in the absence of agility and defense. Note that you get 5.6% dodge from the 689 defense rating needed to maintain uncrittability. That reduces the required dodge rating to 234.5589. So for this scenario to be realistic, we'd need to be running a gear set with somewhere below 200 dodge rating. That's infeasible enough already that it's probably not worth considering too much further. However, let's assume you find a gear set with 200 dodge rating.

Assume 200 dodge rating and 400 parry rating.
D=200/f=4.4199
P=400/f=8.8397

Ddr=4.3928
Pdr=7.7266

R0 = 6.3637 (0.7637 after the 5.6 from defense)

Using 6.3637, the crossover between delta_R1 and R2 occurs at 1065 added rating. In other words, you'd be better off adding parry rating until you hit 1065 rating, at which point it would be better to switch all of that rating over to dodge.

Using 0.7637, the crossover occurs at 145.6 added rating. Since it seems likely that we'll have well over 346 dodge rating in any conceivable gear set after raid buffs, it's safe to say that Icecrown Radiance doesn't have any significant effect on the current "do I gem dodge or parry" philosophy.

Of course, Meloree's point about this reducing the overall value of avoidance compared to EH is entirely correct.

Sorry Theck, I'm not sure what Ddr means. But your analysis seems to be considering only dodge affected by diminishing returns. Did you include the option to drop anticipation in favor of some other talent, such as going into both ret and holy for the optional defensive talents, or going deeper into ret for threat talents? Dropping anticipation increases the post-DR percent dodge required from dodge rating and agility by a lot, which makes the minimum dodge rating required on a crossover gear set to go up a lot.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:07 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:If any, dks are the only ones that may get shafted here, depending basically on how often they can actually use their Runestrike procs and how often it'll proc. They don't think it'll be a real problem so odds are it will, but not big enough to warrant a lightning-fast fix.
A few of our procs will change from "not doing nothing" to "doing something". namely redoubt procs will be the only situation where we can guarantee at least a block, and shield block got a lil boost on that same effect of guaranteeing a block. This, mind you, is only compared to what the bosses "would be like if radiance was never installed", so don't go around yelling "nerf warriors" and "stack block", or you will have your spleen reduced to chunky salsa before you can click holy shield.


Ghostcrawler wrote:I may have quoted an inappropriate post above. My bad. I was trying to offer a response to all of the misinformed folks who said “You are nerfing dodge so now my +dodge gear is bad.” I agree the trinkets that proc on dodge will need to be buffed to compensate for the change. Rune Strike might need to be buffed to compensate for the change.


At least they're considering a Runestrike buff in case threat numbers turn out to be troublesome for DKs with IR in effect.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Varuk » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:18 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:[What kind of setup puts you so far ahead past the combat table? I can only imagine a block-heavy set, which will hardly be favored since, avoidable or not, tank damage will still be huge and, as GC said, we can still expect a 2-shot gibber or two.
I pulled those numbers from my 258 BiS list, which has 0 SBR. My current suit only has 8.5% wasted block chance, again with 0 SBR. Even then, though, I would go from 33.5% block to 41% block, a 22.3% relative increase in SBV mitigation. The difference is definitely more noticeable with better gear, though -- such as Icecrown gear.

Also, in the event of a 2-shot gib boss, which is better, to reduce your chance of taking two hits in a row from 25% to 18%, or to gain enough SBR & SBV to make it a three-shot gib boss? One of those options sounds a hell of a lot better than the other, at least to me.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:36 pm

I'm still curious to actually see the set in a character. Could you point it out somewhere?
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Arkesh » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:48 pm

Varuk wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:[What kind of setup puts you so far ahead past the combat table? I can only imagine a block-heavy set, which will hardly be favored since, avoidable or not, tank damage will still be huge and, as GC said, we can still expect a 2-shot gibber or two.
I pulled those numbers from my 258 BiS list, which has 0 SBR. My current suit only has 8.5% wasted block chance, again with 0 SBR. Even then, though, I would go from 33.5% block to 41% block, a 22.3% relative increase in SBV mitigation. The difference is definitely more noticeable with better gear, though -- such as Icecrown gear.

Also, in the event of a 2-shot gib boss, which is better, to reduce your chance of taking two hits in a row from 25% to 18%, or to gain enough SBR & SBV to make it a three-shot gib boss? One of those options sounds a hell of a lot better than the other, at least to me.


I'm going to assume this is you. I put you at 97.76% avoidance with HS up, buffs would take you to 100%-ish? Where's your wasted 8.5% block?

Edited for quote.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Trase » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:56 pm

Arkesh wrote:
Varuk wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:What kind of setup puts you so far ahead past the combat table? I can only imagine a block-heavy set, which will hardly be favored since, avoidable or not, tank damage will still be huge and, as GC said, we can still expect a 2-shot gibber or two.
I pulled those numbers from my 258 BiS list, which has 0 SBR. My current suit only has 8.5% wasted block chance, again with 0 SBR. Even then, though, I would go from 33.5% block to 41% block, a 22.3% relative increase in SBV mitigation. The difference is definitely more noticeable with better gear, though -- such as Icecrown gear.

Also, in the event of a 2-shot gib boss, which is better, to reduce your chance of taking two hits in a row from 25% to 18%, or to gain enough SBR & SBV to make it a three-shot gib boss? One of those options sounds a hell of a lot better than the other, at least to me.


I'm going to assume this is you. I put you at 97.76% avoidance with HS up, buffs would take you to 100%-ish? Where's your wasted 8.5% block?

Edited for quote.


With a full compliment of raid buffs, he has roughly 6% wasted block in his current gear. That is assuming none of his balance druids run without Insect Swarm glyphed. With an unglyphed Insect Swarm, it's around 9%.

For comparison, I have 4% wasted block in my current gear and don't have a balance druid without a glyphed Insect Swarm.

EDIT: Wrong gear set!
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:03 pm

# Defense: 572
# Dodge: 27.26%
# Parry: 21.74%
# Block: 11.88%


Assuming no DR, he'd have 11,88% miss, so that sums up to 72,76%, 102,76% with holy shield. Wouldn't kings+horn of winter only add another 3%? I've never calculated the precise number, but my avoidance with every possible agi buff never differed from my unbuffed avoidance by a full 4%. He'd be at 4% wasted block, which is quite minor, and we're all back at that "just like warriors" blur, especially considering that, we will *still* be taking huge amounts of damage, against which avoidance is simply that more reliable.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Arkesh » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:07 pm

I wasn't under the impression 25 man buffs were that huge, but maybe so, I apologise. I consider it very lucky if I get a 10% kings *and* horn, I'm not even going to mention Unglyphed IS >.<
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Varuk » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:08 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:I'm still curious to actually see the set in a character. Could you point it out somewhere?

I could post it. I don't know anybody off the top of my head who wears it (I tend to value stamina much lower than most people do, at least for the moment).

Try this:
http://www.chardev.org/?profile=311799

That site wouldn't let me pick Magni's Resolution, so I selected Cloak of the Unmoving Guardian. Also, the 70% avoidance and 42% block figure is with averaged uptime on mongoose and quel'serrar; it'd obviously be less without and more with. And like I said, I don't care for stamina very much at all; in my eyes, stamina is only good if it saves you from dying, and I can tank the last leg of Heroic Gormok with 48k HP and no cooldown and not get so much as an AD proc, so I really don't feel like I need more of it. My current PoV is, I can live through every single thing this game can currently throw at me, so my job from here on out is to make it easier on my healers and mitigate as much as I can.

Also, to answer Trase's post above, my guild's balance druid does not use the Insect Swarm glyph just because it's such a large increase in tank damage. So yeah, 8.5 to 9% wasted block. My guild's officers do a damn skippy job at making sure we have all possible raid buffs, and I tip my hat to them for doing it.


Edit: Realized so much time had past I'd lost my context.
Last edited by Varuk on Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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