Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

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Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby baneoftruth » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:09 am

Pre 3.2, the rule of thumb was
1) Stack ~700 defense rating (uncrittable)
2) Stack defense rating and block rating until 102.4% (Paladins only, maybe warriors)
3) Stack dodge rating until dodge rating = defense rating
4) Stack parry rating until 200 rating (assuming dodge = defense = ~700)
5) Add dodge, defense, and parry ratings at about a 10:10:2 ratio (at very high values the parry contribution will grow somewhat)


Now that the ratings have changed, I've found that the dodge:parry ratio is 1.88:1, but I haven't found any reference to how this effects defense rating. (Dodge:Defense:Parry = 1.88:???:1)

Some of our stickies even reference the old mantra, so I was hoping we could update the "avoidance law" and update the stickies.
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:16 am

For details you can read this post, but the short version is "you can ignore it."

The defense contributions are already included in your character sheet dodge and parry percentages, so the 1.88:1 ratio automatically compensates for that. You can pick up a little extra avoidance due to the extra miss from defense, but it only amounts to about 0.05% avoidance overall, so it's not really worth trying to micro-manage it to that degree. Again, the link I provided earlier has the details.
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby baneoftruth » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:21 am

Well I'm a little embarrassed...not sure how I missed that post in that thread. Thanks for posting that link!

So the new idea is:

1) Stack ~700 defense rating (uncrittable) [pretty sure it's 689 defense...]
2) Stack defense rating and block rating until 102.4% (Paladins only, maybe warriors)
3) Stack dodge rating until dodge:parry ratio is over 1.88
4) Stack parry rating until dodge:parry ratio is under 1.88
5) Repeat 3&4
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:35 am

baneoftruth wrote:Well I'm a little embarrassed...not sure how I missed that post in that thread. Thanks for posting that link!

So the new idea is:

1) Stack ~700 defense rating (uncrittable) [pretty sure it's 689 defense...]
2) Stack defense rating and block rating until 102.4% (Paladins only, maybe warriors)
3) Stack dodge rating until dodge:parry ratio is over 1.88
4) Stack parry rating until dodge:parry ratio is under 1.88
5) Repeat 3&4


From an avoidance standpoint, this is the way to go. For progression, however, it's much simpler.

1) 540 Total Defense Skill (689 rating)
2) Stack Stamina
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby Wrathy » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:43 am

toothdecaykills wrote:From an avoidance standpoint, this is the way to go. For progression, however, it's much simpler.

1) 540 Total Defense Skill (689 rating)
2) Stack Stamina


Yes and no. First off it depends on the progression encounter. Stacking only stamina is good for Magic damage dealing bosses, but is far inferior to a good balance of Stamina, armor and avoidance when you are dealing with physical damage bosses.

I know I am the minority at this site, but I hate seeing tanks that dont balance themselves out. a tank with 40k unbuffed hp, 24k armor and 42% avoidance is nothing compared to a tank with 36k hp, 27k armor, and 50% avoidance. The only place where stacking pure stamina is beneficial is to extend the range of ardent defender. But if you are hovering in the 35% hp range, your healers aren't doing their jobs anyways.
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:02 pm

toothdecaykills wrote:From an avoidance standpoint, this is the way to go. For progression, however, it's much simpler.

1) 540 Total Defense Skill (689 rating)
2) Stack Stamina


I laughed, and then I cried.
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby baneoftruth » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:15 pm

toothdecaykills wrote:From an avoidance standpoint, this is the way to go. For progression, however, it's much simpler.

1) 540 Total Defense Skill (689 rating)
2) Stack Stamina

The discussion at hand was more of one on how to balance available pieces of gear between the avoidance stats. For example, if you had a pair of gloves with 49 dodge rating, another pair with 49 parry rating, and a third pair with just 36 defense rating on it, which one would have been better given a player's current avoidance. (1% dodge vs 1% parry vs 1% avoidance from dodge/parry/miss, all pre-DR of course...)

Stacking Armor and Stamina towards EH is what you do at the same time, and usually is more of a question when gems and enchants are involved.

For the sake of this question, though, stamina does not exist.
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:27 pm

Or more pertinently, "I have X dodge and Y parry, and I need to stuff a purple gem in this red socket for my meta. Do I get better mileage out of dodge/stam or parry/stam?"


The EH/Stam vs Avoidance discussion is a separate issue, and will never have a consistent answer. Especially since the answer changes every time a new dungeon is released:
  • Naxx/Maly/Sarth - EH thresholds were low, stack Avoid/BV
  • Ulduar comes out - Tanks getting 2-shot, stack EH
  • Ulduar is "mature" - Tanks have comfortable EH, tank death not a serious issue, stack avoidance
  • Coliseum comes out - Tanks taking large unavoidable damage spikes due to boss encounter mechanics - stack EH

putting on my magical future x-ray goggles:
  • Coliseum becomes "mature" - Things will probably shift back towards avoidance again
  • Icecrown comes out - Saurfang and Fordragon team up to 2-shot the tank, Sindragosa frost breaths for over 9000^2, and Arthas has a special attack called "Frostmourning Glory" that applies the "De-pants'd" debuff, reducing avoidance by 50%. Stack EH.
  • Cataclysm comes out - pugs steamroll Arthas in greens. Goblins lose their "sit" animation due to the prevalance of dreaded "Green Tea-Bagging" incidents. Theck loses his pun license, forced into servitude crunching Fantasy Football statistics for his crimes.
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby _Ayli_ » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:30 am

Its simple.

new instance = stack EH
old instance = have fun in your avoidance/block set

ive come to the conclusion that for toc25 heroic, get 40k unbuffed and only then consider tweaking your avoidance (while maintaining that health).

And remember, the avoidance comes with the gear you need to reach 40k anyways.
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby Vadis » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:01 pm

theckhd wrote:putting on my magical future x-ray goggles:
  • Coliseum becomes "mature" - Things will probably shift back towards avoidance again
  • Icecrown comes out - Saurfang and Fordragon team up to 2-shot the tank, Sindragosa frost breaths for over 9000^2, and Arthas has a special attack called "Frostmourning Glory" that applies the "De-pants'd" debuff, reducing avoidance by 50%. Stack EH.
  • Cataclysm comes out - pugs steamroll Arthas in greens. Goblins lose their "sit" animation due to the prevalance of dreaded "Green Tea-Bagging" incidents. Theck loses his pun license, forced into servitude crunching Fantasy Football statistics for his crimes.



LOL Thanks, Theckhd.
/tries to clean the coffee off the keyboard
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby trellian » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:16 am

theckhd wrote:putting on my magical future x-ray goggles:
...


You actually have engineering ?! /puzzled look...
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby Thalastor82 » Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:20 am

theckhd wrote:putting on my magical future x-ray goggles:
  • Coliseum becomes "mature" - Things will probably shift back towards avoidance again
  • Icecrown comes out - Saurfang and Fordragon team up to 2-shot the tank, Sindragosa frost breaths for over 9000^2, and Arthas has a special attack called "Frostmourning Glory" that applies the "De-pants'd" debuff, reducing avoidance by 50%. Stack EH.
  • Cataclysm comes out - pugs steamroll Arthas in greens. Goblins lose their "sit" animation due to the prevalance of dreaded "Green Tea-Bagging" incidents. Theck loses his pun license, forced into servitude crunching Fantasy Football statistics for his crimes.


lol


and yes, he actually has egineering
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby Meloree » Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:04 pm

Wrathy wrote:
toothdecaykills wrote:From an avoidance standpoint, this is the way to go. For progression, however, it's much simpler.

1) 540 Total Defense Skill (689 rating)
2) Stack Stamina


Yes and no. First off it depends on the progression encounter. Stacking only stamina is good for Magic damage dealing bosses, but is far inferior to a good balance of Stamina, armor and avoidance when you are dealing with physical damage bosses.

I know I am the minority at this site, but I hate seeing tanks that dont balance themselves out. a tank with 40k unbuffed hp, 24k armor and 42% avoidance is nothing compared to a tank with 36k hp, 27k armor, and 50% avoidance. The only place where stacking pure stamina is beneficial is to extend the range of ardent defender. But if you are hovering in the 35% hp range, your healers aren't doing their jobs anyways.


I don't actually think you are in the minority on that viewpoint. I hate not balancing myself and blindly stacking stamina. However, we've had 2 full instances now where stamina stacking isn't just a viable choice, but in my experience it's the optimal choice. Also, your numbers are slightly unfair. Tank 2 has given up 300 stamina and gained 3000 armor and 500 avoidance rating. Tank 2 is in much better gear, regardless of enchant/gemming choices. So, in this case, I'm going to have to agree with Toothdecaykills.

For progression:
Step 1, get uncrittable.
Step 2, stack stamina.

theckhd wrote:putting on my magical future x-ray goggles:

Coliseum becomes "mature" - Things will probably shift back towards avoidance again
Icecrown comes out - Saurfang and Fordragon team up to 2-shot the tank, Sindragosa frost breaths for over 9000^2, and Arthas has a special attack called "Frostmourning Glory" that applies the "De-pants'd" debuff, reducing avoidance by 50%. Stack EH.
Cataclysm comes out - pugs steamroll Arthas in greens. Goblins lose their "sit" animation due to the prevalance of dreaded "Green Tea-Bagging" incidents. Theck loses his pun license, forced into servitude crunching Fantasy Football statistics for his crimes.


I'm not really certain about Icecrown, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a Brutallus-like boss where you can't reasonably cross the EH minimum, and are forced to stack avoidance and pray. As far as colisseum goes, though, there are really only two interesting bosses from a tank perspective: Beasts and Anub. Both reward EH, I don't forsee a gear threshold where avoidance would become in any way preferable. Wrathy did bring up a good point, in that the correct progression gear depends on encounter. It's just that all of them are EH or irrelevant so far.

EDIT: I'm aware that Brutallus would be pretty trivial today with the prevalance of tank and raid cooldowns available, and would turn out to, in fact, reward EH more strongly than avoidance. I trust that Blizzard has more ingenuity than I do, though, and it would be nice to see an avoidance-reward boss.

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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby Mindrak » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:31 pm

Meloree wrote:EDIT: I'm aware that Brutallus would be pretty trivial today with the prevalance of tank and raid cooldowns available, and would turn out to, in fact, reward EH more strongly than avoidance. I trust that Blizzard has more ingenuity than I do, though, and it would be nice to see an avoidance-reward boss.


Stacking debuffs for a soft enrage would be do this. Imagine if a fast hitting boss, every hit on the tank reduced armor and increased damage taken by the tank for 2 minutes by 2% (applied even on a block). Or similar buff stacking mechanics.
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Re: Avoidance ratio and rule of thumb

Postby milabrega » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:56 pm

baneoftruth wrote:Pre 3.2, the rule of thumb was
1) Stack ~700 defense rating (uncrittable)
2) Stack defense rating and block rating until 102.4% (Paladins only, maybe warriors)
3) Stack dodge rating until dodge rating = defense rating
4) Stack parry rating until 200 rating (assuming dodge = defense = ~700)
5) Add dodge, defense, and parry ratings at about a 10:10:2 ratio (at very high values the parry contribution will grow somewhat)


Now that the ratings have changed, I've found that the dodge:parry ratio is 1.88:1, but I haven't found any reference to how this effects defense rating. (Dodge:Defense:Parry = 1.88:???:1)

Some of our stickies even reference the old mantra, so I was hoping we could update the "avoidance law" and update the stickies.


Hey, I have a quick question... when it comes down to having the 1.88:1 ratio, do you want it unbuffed first? Sorry if the question seems a bit newb, but I'm still learning.
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