3/5 reckoning?

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3/5 reckoning?

Postby defeated » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:28 am

I've been chatting with a fellow paladin tank in guild, he is currently rocking a spec with 3/5 reckoning, and now i wonder if it will help increase tps a decent amount, i am obviously not good with the math or anything, but curious if anyone has any data from trying a spec like this.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0xA0uGusIufdtsMobc

Thanks for any info in advance. =)
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby bashef » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:48 am

I'm also currently using a spec with 3/5 reckoning. Comprehensive details and discussion are available in numerous threads on this forum, primarily Theck's monolithic sticky, and Knaughty's FAQ too.

Basically, you need to put 3 points in the lower tiers of the prot tree to be able to reach all the stuff higher up. You have three or four options of where to put them:

1) 3/5 Divinity: some additional healing received. To my mind of highly questionable benefit, and the usefulness of the talent has been debated a lot on these forums. Hard to give concrete numbers on its usefulness.

2) Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian: wonderful utility talents. In my experience however they're difficult to use while main tanking anything in current content.

3) Imp Hammer of Justice: slightly less crap interrupt. Still rubbish though (20 secs fully talented, and on the GCD)

4) Reckoning: OK threat since the redesign of SoV. Shouldn't be considered for full rank since there are much better threat talents available with the last two points, but especially with the ridiculous amount of expertise on Coliseum gear I don't feel too bad using this.

My reasoning is that I feel extra threat is still useful in some circumstances (NB heroic I feel like I'm only able to hit the bosses half the time with all the knockdowns/stuns/knockbacks/slows/etc) and at the moment I feel like the extra threat/damage I can provide for my raid is of more use than the extra (over)healing I would take or a utility talent I honestly can't see when to use. I will happily spec out of this if I see a use for DG though.
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:57 am

bashef wrote:I will happily spec out of this if I see a use for DG though.

Any situation where dps takes damage. Any situation where tanks other than you take damage.
It's your job to make the dpsers' job AND the healer's job easier. DG contributes much more towards the healers than reckoning contributes towards the dpsers.
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:10 am

I actually roll with 1/1 Divine Sacrifice and 2/2 Imp. HoJ nowadays. While DS is useful, there aren't as many situations where I get to use it in ToC, so I don't feel the 2 points in Divine Guardian are getting me much mileage anymore. I still like having the ability though, and 30% is still a pretty nice baseline reduction, so I think it's still worth that one point.

The reason for Imp. HoJ is mostly Faction Champions and Anub. With Imp. HoJ, I can almost single-handedly lock down one of the healers in FC, making the early burn phase much easier since we can CC an extra dps rather than a healer. It's also useful on adds in the Anub encounter, and just nice to have in general for heroics and world pvp.

I believe someone did the math a few months ago showing that if you're add-tanking and the extra stun prevents even one extra 15k+ hit from landing, you've just achieved more mitigation than both points in DG would net you through Sacred Shield. So that's something to consider as well.

It's mostly a flavor decision anymore though. If you always go Ret for FC, then you may want to go with Reckoning for the extra threat or DS/DG for the added RaidWall mitigation. I'd say just spec whatever you personally feel is most useful, based on your usual raid composition and ability usage.
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby Kihra » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:55 pm

I am a fan of Divine Sacrifice. There are some clever places where you can use it even as a tank. For example, on heroic Valkyr Twins if the twin you're tanking is casting a vortex...
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby Macktruck » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:37 pm

Kihra wrote:I am a fan of Divine Sacrifice. There are some clever places where you can use it even as a tank. For example, on heroic Valkyr Twins if the twin you're tanking is casting a vortex...


Then everybody should be the same color and take 0 dmg.
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby defeated » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:50 pm

I used to love the exact same build your using theck, with 1 in DS, and 2 in HoJ, but after i saw they are nerfing the HoJ cd reduction of judgements of the just, i wanted to find a build i will be happy with after the patch. From what i have read the sacred shield you keep on yourself mitigates more than 500 damage, and is based off of your spellpower right? From reading the tooltip of the DG talent, it also increased the effectiveness of sacred shield as well right?

But anyway, back to my original question, does anyone happen to know approximately how much extra tps i would gain from running a build with 3/5 reck, compared to a build without? Also once i reach the expertise hardcap? I forget that exact number, if anyone remembers it, please let me know. From all of the gear i've seen from ToC reaching the exp hardcap looks like it will be too easy.
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby Soralin » Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:04 pm

defeated wrote:From what i have read the sacred shield you keep on yourself mitigates more than 500 damage, and is based off of your spellpower right? From reading the tooltip of the DG talent, it also increased the effectiveness of sacred shield as well right?

Only one sacred shield can be applied to a target, they don't stack anymore. It used to be good to take Divine Guardian and keep your Sacred Shield on yourself but nowadays we run with 2 holy paladins (one Beacon/Sacred Shield for each tank) and even with DG, their Sacred Shields will absorb significantly more than mine will.

I suppose you COULD throw your SS on a dps or healer - but that's something I'm far too lazy to do so have specced DS + Imp HoJ (2/2) just as Theck has.

As for your 3/5 reckoning threat question check out the Matlab thread, the first post has an index linking to talent point tps analysis.
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby defeated » Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:25 pm

Currently we only have 1 raiding holy paladin, and as being the guilds usual off tank, i tell him to SS someone else like our warrior. :P
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby Kihra » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:36 pm

Macktruck wrote:
Kihra wrote:I am a fan of Divine Sacrifice. There are some clever places where you can use it even as a tank. For example, on heroic Valkyr Twins if the twin you're tanking is casting a vortex...


Then everybody should be the same color and take 0 dmg.


Off topic now I suppose, but it's not about protecting from the vortex. It's about protecting from the orbs at a time when color transitions have to happen. It's better to have a non-tanking paladin do it still, since they can extend their sacrifice into the time that people are having to run to a portal to return to their original colors, but it's kind of cool that a tankadin can pop it if no other paladins have one available. :)
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:28 pm

Soralin wrote:As for your 3/5 reckoning threat question check out the Matlab thread, the first post has an index linking to talent point tps analysis.

Unfortunately the forum upgrade broke all the links, and I haven't had time to update it yet.

Luckily though, I remember the numbers pretty well. Reckoning was something around 25 TPS per point for normal gear and a 1.6 speed weapon.
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby defeated » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:14 am

Is this before or after possibly reaching the hard expertise cap?
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:00 am

defeated wrote:Is this before or after possibly reaching the hard expertise cap?

That value should be pre-soft-cap, as in less than 26 expertise. It will go up slightly (as in a few TPS) as you increase expertise and/or hit.
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby bashef » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:48 am

Any situation where dps takes damage. Any situation where tanks other than you take damage.
It's your job to make the dpsers' job AND the healer's job easier. DG contributes much more towards the healers than reckoning contributes towards the dpsers.


This is quite true, but I'd add a proviso in there which is what stopped me from using it. You need to be sure that healers are ready for the damage to be redirected to you, and even more sure that the extra damage won't put you at risk of dying yourself. After a couple of weeks in Coliseum where I genuinely couldn't find a safe place to use it, I switched to Reckoning.

Of course Theck's point is the most important - they're three floating points, and have very little bearing on your core tank function. You can choose between a little extra threat or a little extra utility depending on what you and your raid find most beneficial for the stuff you're doing.
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Re: 3/5 reckoning?

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:26 am

Will AD's emergency heal trigger from damage redirected to via Divine Sacrifice or Hand of Sacrifice? If it can, you could make a swift judgment call to blow DS and keep your finger poised on that Lay on Hands button.

I hadn't bothered to test this, even when DG was worth picking up I had not ever considered the DS ability to be what I had wanted. I used it sparringly through a couple progression fights in Ulduar but felt the true benefit came from the SS stacking.
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