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How will new changes effect our threat?

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How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby Haberjinx » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:58 am

Like i've said in a few of my previous posts, i've been away from WoW for quite some time now so excuse me if my questions are off the wall. I know we are going to lose some threat with the righteous fury change which is fine, but I was looking over the new patch notes and it seems that we will now be losing even more threat. I'm posting here to see what these changes will actually mean for our threat before I jump to conclusions.

Okay here goes:

1)
Note: Seal of Corruption and Seal of Vengeance: These seals will now only use the debuff stacks generated by the attacking paladin to determine the damage done by the seal and by the judgement.

How will this effect us? Will it take a longer time to establish threat in raids now? I figure that it won't because not every raid has a ret paladin, but as I said, i've been away for a while.

2)
Note: Hammer of the Righteous: The damage from this ability is now considered physical instead of Holy. The threat generated by the ability has been increased such that it will continue to do approximately the same threat it did when it was Holy damage.

Was the holy HOR damage reduced by a mobs armor before? If not this seems like it could also be a slight threat nerf. Even though they are increasing the threat, it will still be affected by armor. I wonder what the point of this change my have been.


3)
Note: Touched by the Light: This talent now provides 20/40/60% of the paladin’s strength as spell power instead of 10/20/30% of the paladin’s stamina.

From what i've been hearing. this change wont be a big loss in threat but coupled with the other changes above, how much total threat will we be losing if any at all.

:| :| :|
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby badgermonkey » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:10 am

About 5% (no, I have no maths to back it up, that's what the smart people do ;) )
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:05 am

well, HotR's damage being physical(if they REALLY bake in the extra 80% threat that it will lose from RF) will only drop in relation to the enemy's armor.
We've always been the fastest to apply SoV anyway so I don't see a big deal here.
the Touched change will be a loss of spellpower, definitely, but not a big one.
RF's change from 90% to 80% extra threat will be roughly a 5% threat loss, the TbtL change will be minimal in all but the stam-whore sets, dunno how much armor changes the HotR's damage, though. We'll be looking at losing maybe 8 to 10% tps.
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby majiben » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:22 am

You're being too generous with the threat loss snake. The RF change alone will be less than 5%, with my own numbers coming out to be 4.6%. Assuming the HotR threat is not changed when raid buffed, then that's not a factor and TbtL change results in a very small SP loss, ~100 SP in the wost case scenario, or about 45 TPS (as a high end). All in all, I would expect 5-6%.
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby Vencedor » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:03 am

The Touched by the Light and Hammer of the Righteous are PVP driven changes.

Too many Prot/Holy Paladins in arenas brought these changes on. So, now they're making these talents still operate with a tank's gearset, but not operate with a healer's.
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby Shalcker » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:14 am

SoV is bugfix. Overall it's probably minor threat buff for us.

HotR is pvp nerf (they wouldn't add threat increase otherwise). Holy 3-target cleave critting up to 5k on plate/treeform (+seal proc) is pretty powerful in 3v3 and 5v5.

Prot pvp dps isn't fotm yet, but with TbtL change dpsprot pvp spelldamage will go up (it will actually double in my current pvp gear), so overall damage will go up as well. I guess they're trying to keep it from becoming another ret-like burst. It is already pretty ridiculous how much you can do in span of hoj and AS silence.
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby honorshammer » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:19 am

Baked in threat on HotR is a bad idea. Warriors went bonkers when they put baked in threat on Shield Slam. (Was that ultimately reversed before it went live?)

It's a bad move.
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:52 am

Honorshammer wrote:Baked in threat on HotR is a bad idea. Warriors went bonkers when they put baked in threat on Shield Slam. (Was that ultimately reversed before it went live?)

It's a bad move.

Thunder clap and Death&Decay both go on that procedure: They have their own threat multiplier. That's bound to be what they'll do to HotR.
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby tlitp » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:39 am

320 :
Code: Select all
Hammer_of_the_Righteous = weapon_dps.*4.* ...          %inherent
    (100-boss_avoid)./100.* ...              %hit, after combined avoidance and miss
    (1 + (phcrit_multiplier -1).*melee_crit./100).*... %crit
    (OHWS.*Crusade.*GoSU).* ...     %talents
    (CoE.*SanctRet).* ...           %buffs/debuffs
    (T72pc).* ...                   %Tier 7 bonus
    boss_resist_reduce;             %boss resist

322_experimental :
Code: Select all
Hammer_of_the_Righteous = weapon_dps.*4.* ...          %inherent
    (100-boss_avoid)./100.* ...              %hit
    (1 + (phcrit_multiplier -1).*melee_crit./100).*... %crit
    (1-boss_DR).* ...           %boss damage reduction
    (OHWS.*Crusade.*GoSU).* ... %talents
    (SanctRet).* ...            %buffs/debuffs
    (T72pc+T92pc);              %Tier bonuses

assuming that
- all relevant raid buffs/debuffs are available, and
- HotR receives an extra 1.8 threat multiplier, and
- 969+SoV are used,
the 322 changes boil down to a ~39% absolute dps/tps loss; considering (for the sake of the discussion) a relative weight of ~15% for HotR's threat, as per the 320 iteration, the relative tps loss is ~5.8%... greater than the loss incurred by the TbtL change


it'd be great to have some PTR confirmations, though; namely :
a. the exact threat multiplier of HotR
b. the t7/9 bonuses stacking additively
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby Argali » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:03 am

Honorshammer wrote:Baked in threat on HotR is a bad idea. Warriors went bonkers when they put baked in threat on Shield Slam. (Was that ultimately reversed before it went live?)

It's a bad move.


No, the uproar was not the baked threat, it was the lowered dps and mitigation. Instead of shield block doubling SBV for the duration, it doubled the threat it did but did not give the extra SBV. Keep in mind this was with the SBV doubling from items coming in the same patch.

So instead they just put in DR for SBV.
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby Spectrum » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:06 pm

It sounds like devs are perfectly fine with us having good threat. They just don't want us to be so far ahead of the other tanks that we are the required tank for any threat-limited fight. At the worst we'll be down near the threat of other tanks, and that's not even that bad.

In my experience we could lose 10% and be fine on 99% of fights. For the other 1% we have Hand of Salvs and DPS who know how to watch their damn threat meters.
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby toothdecaykills » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:15 pm

Ghostcrawler recently commented on the Hammer of the Righteous change here.

In addition to an explanation as to why they sometimes have to resort to +threat abilities, he said...

Having said all that, we don't have a lot of confidence that this change will actually go live, so I wouldn't freak out just yet.

In regard to the Seal of Vengeance/Corruption fix mentioned and how it affects us, what was routinely happening was that Retribution could unintentionally nerf Prot threat by limiting the extra Seal damage until HIS stacks could be brought up.
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby xstratax » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:12 pm

Based on what theck posted in the bug forums, the change to SoV/SoCor is a threat boost for prot, and a minor dps loss for Ret (initially). RF is a 5% loss at best, and TbtL shouldnt be much of an issue, and the change to your SP depends on your gear...if your Str is greater than or equal to half your Stam then you wont lose any SP, and possibly gain some.

I hope the HotR change doesnt go live though, it would be nice for them to add some sort of PvP delineation to the ability so that it doesnt become too OP (as if it would ever)
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby Haberjinx » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:30 pm

Good to hear the SoV change won't be a nerf. There are so many people on the official forums stating that it will be a slight nerf so I got curious as to why.

I was thinking about it and maybe HoTR will be a threat increase on a fully sundered mob now.
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Re: How will new changes effect our threat?

Postby toothdecaykills » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:13 am

Haberjinx wrote:Good to hear the SoV change won't be a nerf. There are so many people on the official forums stating that it will be a slight nerf so I got curious as to why.

I was thinking about it and maybe HoTR will be a threat increase on a fully sundered mob now.


According to the latest PTR Patch Notes updated as of 9/11, the Hammer of the Righteous change was reverted and Ardent Defender received a nerf. You can find those here.

In short, Ardent Defender: This talent now reduces damage taken below 35% health by 7/13/20% instead of 10/20/30%.
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