Parry mechanic question

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Parry mechanic question

Postby repent » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:55 am

We were discussing the effects of positional tank stacking during Northrend beasts and a question came up that I wasn't sure about. Say that a warrior and pally are stacked on top of each other for positional purposes, alternating agro on the first boss to come. Paladin is tanking, and the warrior is just auto-attacking waiting for debuffs to stack. During the OFFTANKS auto melee attacks, the boss parries. Does the bosses parry of the off tanks attack affect the bosses attacks on the main tank?
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:07 am

Yes. If the offtank gets a parry, it could parry-haste the boss's next attack against the main tank. This is why it is generally inadvisable for dps to attack from the front(other than lower dps).
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby Jerey-Darkspear » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:17 am

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Yes. If the offtank gets a parry, it could parry-haste the boss's next attack against the main tank. This is why it is generally inadvisable for dps to attack from the front(other than lower dps).


For clarification: By lower dps, I'm pretty sure he's referring to lower dps bosses and not lower dps players. Lower dps players will probably cause more parries from having a lower expertise.

In regards to the original topic, it's unlikely that you're going to get parry gibbed by the first boss from having your two tanks standing in front. We've had the two tanks stand in front every week, both 10 and 25, and haven't taken a parry gib.
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:58 am

Jerey-Darkspear wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Yes. If the offtank gets a parry, it could parry-haste the boss's next attack against the main tank. This is why it is generally inadvisable for dps to attack from the front(other than lower dps).


For clarification:  By lower dps, I'm pretty sure he's referring to lower dps bosses and not lower dps players.  Lower dps players will probably cause more parries from having a lower expertise.

In regards to the original topic, it's unlikely that you're going to get parry gibbed by the first boss from having your two tanks standing in front.  We've had the two tanks stand in front every week, both 10 and 25, and haven't taken a parry gib.


Just because you didn't witness a tank death does not mean an attack wasn't hastened from a parry. Reducing or entirely removing this potential spike damage shouldn't be ignored.

I would suggest building threat behind the target and then moving to the front when needed.  

For a good bit of reading check out Theck's experise as avoidance thread here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25611

This may help you recognize what a parry-hasted attack does even if it doesn't result in your death.
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby baneoftruth » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:05 am

Attacking from the front may cause parries, but "parry-gib'ing" doesn't occur as it used to. Back in Classic and to a lesser extent, TBC, a parry-gib occurred when your tank (typically a warrior at that stage) got hit with one or more crushing blows combined with regular boss melee attacks following one or more parries. The result was a quivering mass of jelly on the ground that somewhat resembled your now-dead tank. You can no longer take a crushing blow in a raid if you are the proper level for the raid, so the most that can happen is an added melee hit. Added damage? Yes. Added death? Unlikely but possible.

tl;dr: Off-tank attacks can cause parry-hasted boss attacks if they stand in the front, but not to an extent where it will cause tank death or excessive raid stress. If you want to alleviate some of the concern, have your tanks be vocal. Don't have the off-tank move to the front until the current tank has 1-less debuff than your taunt-off point (if you taunt at 3 debuffs, move to the front at 2 debuffs).
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:29 am

Jerey-Darkspear wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Yes. If the offtank gets a parry, it could parry-haste the boss's next attack against the main tank. This is why it is generally inadvisable for dps to attack from the front(other than lower dps).


For clarification: By lower dps, I'm pretty sure he's referring to lower dps bosses and not lower dps players. Lower dps players will probably cause more parries from having a lower expertise.

I believe he meant that the other reason that melee shouldn't attack from the front is that they will produce lower DPS, because some of their attacks will be parried.

baneoftruth wrote: You can no longer take a crushing blow in a raid if you are the proper level for the raid, so the most that can happen is an added melee hit. Added damage? Yes. Added death? Unlikely but possible.

When the boss is hitting you for 50% of your health a swing, I don't think "unlikely" is the best descriptor to use. Two or more hasted melee attacks in a row can be a problem worth worrying about nowadays, despite not being the traditional pre-bc definition of "parry-gib."
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:42 am

theckhd wrote:
Jerey-Darkspear wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Yes. If the offtank gets a parry, it could parry-haste the boss's next attack against the main tank. This is why it is generally inadvisable for dps to attack from the front(other than lower dps).


For clarification: By lower dps, I'm pretty sure he's referring to lower dps bosses and not lower dps players. Lower dps players will probably cause more parries from having a lower expertise.

I believe he meant that the other reason that melee shouldn't attack from the front is that they will produce lower DPS, because some of their attacks will be parried.

Yes, this is what I meant. +1 Cookie to Theck. -1 Cookie to me for ambiguity.
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:57 am

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Yes, this is what I meant. +1 Cookie to Theck. -1 Cookie to me for ambiguity.

As a humorous aside, this makes melee DPS tend to gravitate towards the boss's backside, which I like to refer to as "butt-seeking." The fun part as a raid leader is to watch your melee DPS players on a fight like Jaraxxus (or slightly more commonly, Archavon or Koralon), where their butt-seeking instinct is forced to compete with their "don't stand in the fire" instinct.

I've heard that if you're really lucky, one will sometimes get so torn between these two instincts that they'll spin around in circles until their head explodes.
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:09 am

theckhd wrote:I've heard that if you're really lucky, one will sometimes get so torn between these two instincts that they'll spin around in circles until their head explodes.


I have yet to witness such an event, perhaps due to my raid's DPS being such frightening beasts of destruction that they fight as immortals,ruthless and never afraid of death. As such, no self preservation instinct exists.
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:10 am

When I used to dps Gruul: "I need to attack from behind, but there's rocks falling?! FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby baneoftruth » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:19 am

theck wrote:
baneoftruth wrote: You can no longer take a crushing blow in a raid if you are the proper level for the raid, so the most that can happen is an added melee hit. Added damage? Yes. Added death? Unlikely but possible.

When the boss is hitting you for 50% of your health a swing, I don't think "unlikely" is the best descriptor to use. Two or more hasted melee attacks in a row can be a problem worth worrying about nowadays, despite not being the traditional pre-bc definition of "parry-gib."

It seems that I made the mistake of making what had the appearance of a blanket statement when I was referring to the situation posed by the original poster.

I made the [poor] decision to not mention in my post that I was strictly referring to bosses which do not have the capability to 2-shot a tank under normal circumstances. Placing the off-tank in front of Steelbreaker in phase3 on 25-man hardmode would be more than slightly idiotic, but placing the off-tank in front of the first Northrend Beast is a little less dangerous (pointlessly unintelligent, but less dangerous). You have a greater chance of dieing to a parry-hasted attack on a boss like Steelbreaker than you do on a boss like the first Northrend Beast...unless you have all your melee dps'ing from the front.

Don't get me wrong...a parry-hasted attack for 25k is much scarier than one for 10k, but I don't want to get hit by either. Hence my tl;dr advice of having the tanks communicate and not move into position on that fight until they were getting ready to taunt. The chance of dieing to a parry-hasted attack by the OT on the Northrend beasts is low, but still a possibility. So...just because you have a higher chance of surviving it doesn't mean you should do it ;-)
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby Corman » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:36 am

Jerey-Darkspear wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Yes. If the offtank gets a parry, it could parry-haste the boss's next attack against the main tank. This is why it is generally inadvisable for dps to attack from the front(other than lower dps).


For clarification: By lower dps, I'm pretty sure he's referring to lower dps bosses and not lower dps players. Lower dps players will probably cause more parries from having a lower expertise.

In regards to the original topic, it's unlikely that you're going to get parry gibbed by the first boss from having your two tanks standing in front. We've had the two tanks stand in front every week, both 10 and 25, and haven't taken a parry gib.


I think he means the fact that the Bosses cannot Parry from behind (They can dodge). If you were attacking from the front, barring being at the expertise cap, the boss could parry some of your attacks, lessening your dps.
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby Venoseth » Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:19 pm

baneoftruth wrote:Placing the off-tank in front of Steelbreaker in phase3 on 25-man hardmode would be more than slightly idiotic, but placing the off-tank in front of the first Northrend Beast is a little less dangerous (pointlessly unintelligent, but less dangerous). You have a greater chance of dieing to a parry-hasted attack on a boss like Steelbreaker than you do on a boss like the first Northrend Beast...unless you have all your melee dps'ing from the front.


If you've tried hard (or even10 hard) NR beasts, it's pretty difficult. The first one, in particular, hits really hard when you include two stacks of his huge DoT on you. I saw AD proc a few times when I had 3 stacks up. XD
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby Worldie » Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:27 pm

Venoseth wrote: I saw AD proc a few times when I had 3 stacks up. XD

AD hardly procs from the DoT there, it most of the time will proc from a hurtful Impale hit.
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Re: Parry mechanic question

Postby baneoftruth » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:45 pm

Venoseth wrote:If you've tried hard (or even10 hard) NR beasts, it's pretty difficult. The first one, in particular, hits really hard when you include two stacks of his huge DoT on you. I saw AD proc a few times when I had 3 stacks up. XD
\
The OP didn't mention it being hard mode...so I wasn't addressing it as such.
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