On Progression MT Gearing

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby JU1CYFRU1T » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:57 pm

theckhd wrote:Long version: For tanking progression content, meaning content which you are appropriately geared for or slightly under-geared for, you want to stack effective health. Which means:
1) Hit the 540 defense minimum
2) Stack stamina to the sky if you can

<snip>

thanks theck, that is what I thought you guys were talking about ... I just wanted to make sure before I re-gemmed so that I didn't have to re-re-gem... lol
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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Marvel » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:28 am

I'm currently reaching just over 52k health and 30k armor raid buffed and there's no way I would change the way I'm gearing/gemming/enchanting. The buffer that I'm giving my healers on a learning encounter is worth far more to me than more total avoided damage over the course of an encounter.

Not to mention we have tremendous scaling with effective health due to Ardent Defender - I believe I'll be stacking stamina and gearing for EH as long as these mechanics are active.
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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Candiru » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:04 am

As long as the burst damage in fights is unavoidable, there is no point in gearing for avoidance.

For hard modes:

Beasts: Gormok's impale cannot be dodge/miss/parry/block. It always hits. -> stack EH
Icehowls burst damage comes when you are stunned, or stunned and taking 30k frost damage. ->stack EH

Jaxxus: Uninterupted fireballs with stacks of netherpower up *hurt*. Nothing else here is going to kill you really -> stack Eh

Champions: tanks dying here is *not* an issue.

Twins: This fight might favour avoidance fur the "power of the twins" dual-weiled thingy, but that doesn't happen that often.

Anub: Burst on the tank is from stun. -> Stack EH


Notice the amount of dangerous unavoidable attacks? Really is no point stacking BV/dodge/def/parry when this is the case.
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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:00 am

Since I was running through the math for this myself, I may as well share it with you.

Case study on re-gemming/re-enchanting to boost EH
My Armory.
Current stats:
780 def rating
549 dodge rating
309 parry rating

I already applied the chest enchant last night, so we could start out with 802 defense rating for a starting point.
Unbuffed Stats:
26.95% dodge
20.76% parry
9.78% miss
57.49% total avoidance

Buffed Stats (add 253 agility and the 200 dodge rating libram proc)
32.57% dodge
20.76% parry
9.78% miss
63.11% total avoidance

Trades:
Chest: 22 def for 275 health (21.8 effective stam)
Shield: 20 def for 18 stam
Shoulder: 20 dodge / 15 def for 30 stam (ignore resil)
Belt, Boots: Swapping gems, 10 agility for 9 stam each, total of 20 agil for 18 stam.

Net change:
-57 defense rating
-20 dodge rating
-20 agility (-22 after kings)
+66 stam (+83 after Sacred Duty, Combat Expertise, and Kings)
+275 health

Post-trade avoidance:
31.81% dodge
20.46% parry
9.52% miss
61.81% total avoidance

So it's a trade of 1.3% avoidance and 49 armor (equivalent to almost 4.5 stam, or 56 health after buffs and talents) for 1.1k health. I was at a little over 48k health fully raid buffed, this change would boost me up to around 49.5k.

If I swapped the red gems in my chest and leg sockets for blue gems, I'd lose another 20 agility and 49 armor to gain 12 more stamina, which is another 0.22% avoidance and 56 health for 151 more health.

So far I've only changed the chest enchant, though the shield and shoulder enchant will probably get applied this evening. I'm still waffling on the Agi/Stam gems in the belt/feet though, which might mean I've just about hit my threshold for stam vs avoidance weighting. I will probably make those changes tonight, but I'm not likely to go as far as to swap out the chest and leg gems, because 0.22% avoidance seems like a weak trade for <100 health.

It sorta saddens me to do this though; last night my off-tanks were joking about how OP paladins were now, so they dared me to solo-tank the trash in Thorim's hallway. Which I did successfully, to all of our surprise, mostly due to a nice string of avoidance. On the first pack, the melee mob died with about 7-8 stacks of each debuff, and the lightning mob's debuff fell off thanks to a string of avoidance at about 50% health. On the second pack, my raid decided to give me a hard time and kill the two mobs simultaneously, forcing me to bubble-clear the stacks when they both reached 20.
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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Vorenus » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:14 am

I have to agree with the people who stack stamina. I know I'm just repeating what others have already said, but I figure one more voice to confirm this might help some people decide.

I stack stam as much as I can. I'm sitting at 42k health unbuffed, which goes to about 54k with all the buffs.
In addition to all of the comments about ToC and how avoidance doesn't do much for stuns in certain fights, I'd like to add a few things:

Gormok: With more health, its possible to go up to 5 or 6 stacks of impale, wait until AD actually procs and then bubble it off and transition to the next tank. I see no reason to save AD, the more health I have, the more I'll have when it saves me and the easier it will be for the spam of heals to top me off. We had two pallies tanking and we were both able to bubble it off after it was our turn to tank. Relying on the AD proc works even better with more health.

Icehowl: Stacking stam is great for all those annoying freezes. On heroic, tranq shot doesn't work and it took a while for everyone to learn where to run to avoid getting trampled. On 25 mean heroic, I don't think I could have survived an enrage if I wasn't stacking stam. I used divine protection, trinkets, a bubble sac and a pain suppression and AD still went off and saved my life. But I was able to live through it. Avoidance wouldn't have helped as I was stunned for the spikes.

Anub: In 10 Man Heroic, we only had two healers. In phase 2, even when I was at 50% health, it amounted to about 25k. Healers were able to keep me up without having to keep me topped off all the time.

I think that as far as empirical proof goes, I have only seen stam to avoidance conversions. I have not (but would like to) see any data which would show how much of an effect stamina has on reducing damage which occurs in the AD range. I'm not even talking about the obvious AD save, but only the incoming damage reduction part of AD. The higher my health, the higher the 35% mark (obviously) and the more damage gets reduced by AD. I haven't seen this being modeled in any of the stam>avoidance conversions.

My healers have told me on numerous occasions how they prefer to heal me because they have more room for error with a larger health pool, because the damage comes in more predictably and because they don't overheal as much and get higher EHPS numbers. ;)

Sidenote: The only thing I'm considering, especially for when 3.2.2 comes out is to swap a few gems to pick up +12 stam socket bonuses and get some more hit rating. Although I don't usually care much about hit, sitting at 78 hit is a bit scary and I don't see this changing just from gear upgrades. (Except maybe 10 Man Heroic boots)
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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Meloree » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:12 am

Finally speaking from experience (got my first look at 25man beasts today), I have to say that EH definitely feels like the way to go on that fight. Gormok is pretty bursty with implae/melee/bleed, and Dreadscale post enrage hits pretty hard, especially with Burning Bile ticking away. Icehowl stuns.

We've only taken a couple of pulls on twins, but with our strat (tanks catching occassional off-colour orbs to keep DPS safe and secure to dps) it feels like it rewards pure stam (MEH?) more than anything else.

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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby badgermonkey » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:07 am

I've recently regemmed to facilitate effective health stacking rather than the healthy mix I normally go for. I can't say I'm noticing that much difference though. I have a bigger health pool, but am definately being hit more.
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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Joanadark » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:55 am

My my what a fun thread this is turning into. Getting back to the foundational gearing theories here. havn't had a good discussion in a while.

The most important thing to keep in mind with discussions like these is that no boss exists in a vacume where they just stand there and melee you. Well, maybe a coupld bosses, but no HARD boss as far as tank survivability.

In Ulduar and CC hard modes, it simply comes down to the fact that most of the dangerous insta-gib situations facing tanks get little or reduced benefit from avoidance. On Gormok the Impaler for example, his impale ability can be dodged, but once its inevitable stacked on you those ticks can only be compensated for by stacked stamina. Anub is another good example because he literally stuns you and prevents you from avoiding. Twins the tank is obliged to soak opposite polarity orbs for the melee camp.

There are good situations for avoidance stacking where un-avoidable specials arent an issue. Algalon is one and Yog 0 is another. it really just comes down to context. you cant just say "X is better for progression tanking". there has to be context of "progression tanking WHAT?"
Obviously, when going into content that you have no idea what is going to happen, you stack stam, but only the most bleeding edge guilds, top 50 world at most maybe, every really find themselves in that situation.

there isn't really much of arguement for balanced stats either. if you are gemming anything but straight stam, that is to be considered avoidance stacking. Split avoidance stam gems are the way you stack avoidance. You shouldnt ever gem straight avoidance. Trinket choice is a big part of this too. All things taken in a vacume, stam trinkets with avoidance uses are by far the best because avoidance is by nature something you want to happen "what you need it".
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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Meloree » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:33 am

Joanadark wrote:On Gormok the Impaler for example, his impale ability can be dodged, but once its inevitable stacked on you those ticks can only be compensated for by stacked stamina.


Impale can't be dodged. Of course arguing even more strongly for more stam.

Joanadark wrote:There are good situations for avoidance stacking where un-avoidable specials arent an issue. Algalon is one and Yog 0 is another.


Algalon has Quantum Strike, Phase Punch, and Black Hole Explosion. I don't think we ever had a tank death that didn't also include Black Hole Explosion as part of the burst. Yogg0, I'll grant, unavoidable specials aren't an issue, but I'm not sure it's a situation where you want to give up any health whatsoever.

Joanadark wrote:there isn't really much of arguement for balanced stats either. if you are gemming anything but straight stam, that is to be considered avoidance stacking. Split avoidance stam gems are the way you stack avoidance. You shouldnt ever gem straight avoidance. Trinket choice is a big part of this too. All things taken in a vacume, stam trinkets with avoidance uses are by far the best because avoidance is by nature something you want to happen "what you need it".


That's a pretty unsupportable tautology. If we ever find an avoidance-reward fight, and I don't hold out much hope, I'll be digging high-avoidance sidegrades and duplicates out of the bank/bag, making sure they've got epic avoidance gems in them, and rebalancing a gearset. With full avoidance gems, that's going to involve less piece swaps to reach a given avoidance level. I'm also pretty certain that we extablished earlier that stamina trinkets are pretty much the cheapest stam you can get, and the only way you shouldn't be using dual stam trinkets is if you've already regemmed everything pure avoidance. Although that doens't take into account the rather anemic "on-use" effects of WotLK.

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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Joanadark » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:34 am

Morose Lucky Pocket Watch. that 16.5% dodge use, how we miss you!
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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby badgermonkey » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:37 am

Joanadark wrote:Morose Lucky Pocket Watch. that 16.5% dodge use, how we miss you!


I got that the other day :D

Of course, it's a bit useless at 80 ><
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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Meloree » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:39 am

Joanadark wrote:Morose Lucky Pocket Watch. that 16.5% dodge use, how we miss you!


As much as I hate "QFT"...

Yes, a similar trinket, I would wear in certain situations. I don't forsee us getting one, though.

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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby toothdecaykills » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:21 pm

As a little aside, I often times wish trinkets weren't laden with passive stat bonuses and instead always provided ONLY their on-use or equip proc effects, thus making trinket choice far more interactive and interesting instead of always having a BiS. 

Also, to put my voice forward, I too recently regemmed full Stam (experience funded by my wonseful Boomkin gf) and cringed when I began to see AD proc far more often than previously...at least until my healers adjusted I guess. I am now in the perfect place to safely claim that I greatly trivialize Gormok for my raid :)

I have yet to decide at what point I should stop my hungry hungry hippo stam gathering. 
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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Doloth » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:42 am

I used to run with the 20 agi to gloves enchant, after much research of the detailed discussions you guys have had, but I recently went back to the old BC enchant of 240 armor. I love stacking armor, two armor rings, armor neck, just enchanted my cloak with 225 armor (was finally able to afford some defense), and I really think it takes the edge off. Plus, the biggest tank killer in hard modes so far: Gormok's Impale, Icehowl's Stun, and Anub'arak's stun (not the stun itself but the attacks while you are stunned) are all affected by armor.

Then I checked out Thekk's armor:stam ratio, and the 240 armor is about equivalent to 20 stam. Now, the 240 armor isn't affected by talents or our meta, but the 18 stam to gloves would be affected by talents. So my question is, is the 240 armor worth it in raw EH over the 18 stam, or should I just grab the 18 stam?

Another thing to think about if they are very close is that 240 armor reduces your incomming damage slightly, while 18 stam just lets you absorb more of it. Doubtful whether the difference would be noticeable, but if the calculations put them about equal to each other, I'd take the armor.

And yes, Thekk, I actually am quite jealous of your 880 armor to gloves from engineering :P.
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Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Nadir » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:05 pm

18 STA becomes 22.66704 STA after talents and Blessing of Kings.

I'd go with the STA enchant since it counts towards both magical and physical EH.
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