Remove Advertisements

On Progression MT Gearing

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Soralin » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:26 pm

theckhd wrote:<edit> Also, I like your 50% benchmark as a break point. I'm at the point where things hit me for <50% of my health; the largest hits I tend to see are in the 18-20k range, and with 45k+ buffed health (51.8k+ after AD is taken into account), we're already getting into the range where it takes 3 hits to kill me. If things were hitting me for around half of my health though, which I suspect will happen with Coliseum hard modes, I'd probably be pushing the stamina much harder myself.

I'm approaching 52k buffed health and from my experiences tanking 10s HM last night I won't be changing my gearing priorities in terms of 25s HM. Solo tanking Anub'arak was.... well lets just say I felt very squishy. Having the add apply the physical damage modifier to you (even through rotating stuns and holy wrath) while the boss is wailing on you is quite nasty. Won't be solo tanking in 25s though, but when we eventually get to normal 25 Anub (stupid server (in)stability) I'll be tanking the two burrowers myself - our druid died to lack of heals and I was able to tank both adds without too much issue, although we have a large number of paladins who were rotating holy wrath so that might have something to do with it.

Icehowl in particular was hitting extremely hard especially through his stun... and I suppose thats another factor in favor of gearing EH over avoidance. If you're stunned you can't avoid (with the exception of miss, obviously). On Icehowl I was spiking into AD range during the stun, and while my healers were quick to top me up, that might not always be the case, and being stunned avoidance wouldn't save me.
User avatar
Soralin
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:43 pm

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:27 pm

Yeah, after tanking Anub25 and some Heroic NB attempts tonight, I'm going to be trading in a bunch of avoidance for stamina. Some of those bosses hit like a truck. The ice block mechanic on Anub also tilts the scales in favor of stamina, since it negates all avoidance.

I have around 48.4k HP fully buffed, and had AD proc several times during our Anub and heroic NB attempts. Moreso during heroic NB, especially when an off-tank died and I had to tank through 3 or 4 stacks. But still. It's clear that I'm now back in the "stack more EH" region of progression, which is a shame, because matching those sockets for the Ulduar hard modes that weren't terribly EH-demanding was kinda fun.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7739
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Steve » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:54 pm

You had AD proc on Anub'arak normal? By proc, do you mean reduce damage or actually save your life and go on cooldown? He hit hard but not crazy hard. Were you also tanking 1-2 adds at the same time? He didn't seem to demand out of the ordinary levels of effective health based on what I was expecting. I think he's easily tankable on normal with a balanced/avoidance set.

I did slide in a second stamina trinket, but the only place I go out of my way for health was the chest enchant. I had roughly 46K health buffed and never had AD proc (except on our wipe). 46K health probably ranks on the lower end of what people here would use.

I think we ran with 6 healers. So maybe that's where the difference was. But I could have tanked the fight with like 40K health and lived (albeit uncomfortably).
Steve
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:04 am

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:15 am

Steve wrote:You had AD proc on Anub'arak normal? By proc, do you mean reduce damage or actually save your life and go on cooldown? He hit hard but not crazy hard. Were you also tanking 1-2 adds at the same time? He didn't seem to demand out of the ordinary levels of effective health based on what I was expecting. I think he's easily tankable on normal with a balanced/avoidance set.

I did slide in a second stamina trinket, but the only place I go out of my way for health was the chest enchant. I had roughly 46K health buffed and never had AD proc (except on our wipe). 46K health probably ranks on the lower end of what people here would use.

I think we ran with 6 healers. So maybe that's where the difference was. But I could have tanked the fight with like 40K health and lived (albeit uncomfortably).

I don't think tanking 1-2 adds at the same time is realistic on 25-man - 2 adds was enough to kill one of our off-tanks pretty consistently during attempts. Anub melees me for around 20k on average, though I remember seeing hits of around 25k at times. Here's the WoL Log.
It looks like the "1-up" proc did not occur on our kill, which happened the first time we successfully pushed him into phase 3. However, I seem to remember seeing the Tankadin2 "Death Avoided" warning happen once or twice, indicating that I was dipping into the danger zone. I also think that on some of the wipes, I had the swarm bug debuff (nature DoT) while tanking him after he resurfaced, which might be why I felt squishier than usual.

I think I'd agree that upwards of 46k is all that's required for this fight, but due to the nature of the ice block mechanic, avoidance takes a pretty serious hit to effectiveness. I think the only time I was in any real danger was during the ice block, so if that's going to be the "worst-case" I'm preparing for in this fight, I'd rather have the extra wiggle room EH gives me.

And again, heroic Gormok hits like a truck, and again the knockdown mechanic nullifies avoidance for short periods throughout the fight (I think anyway, I'd love a confirmation on that). Unfortunately it looks like loggerhead didn't turn on for heroic mode, but I know my druid off-tank died at least once to an 18k melee followed by a 30k Impale and an 8k DoT tick, all in the span of half a second. That made for an amusing Acheron report in raid chat. I think Barkskin wore off about a second before that.

Since the heroic encounters are what I'll be gearing for primarily, shifting allocation to more EH makes sense. I think with some work I could get close to the 52k that Meloree has. If only I could just get as many competent raiders as he has... :P
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7739
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Wrathy » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:34 am

For the Heroic NB encounter, they do hit quite a bit harder. In talking to my healers, I went ahead and swapped some gear around to get more armor on my EH set at the cost of Stamina and that buffed me up to about 32k pre ironshield potion (which i chugged right before entering combat) and trinket. I was told that with the swap to "max armor EH" gear, I was considerably easier to heal than our other tanks. I think i topped out at 48.2k hp in that set as well, a bit more stam couldn't hurt, but I was doing just fine.

In response to your AD warnings on Tankadin2, I think i finished the night with a very large number of deaths avoided, although they were mostly from P2 if I remember correctly.
Dakiros wrote:Hear that sound? Its Wrathy breaking Wowhead and Wordpress while he quickly comes up with the Rival set.

Avenging Wrathy - A Protection Paladin Blog
Wrathy's Guide to Gear Sets

Image
Wrathy
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Meloree » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:38 am

I haven't even had a look at 25man heroic yet, Garona finally came up on Tuesday about 2 hours after our raid start, and we had enough lag in 25 normal that we didn't want to waste any of our attempts. Played with 10man stuff instead for the last ninety minutes of raid. Looking forward to starting attempts tonight, though.

teckhd wrote:And again, heroic Gormok hits like a truck, and again the knockdown mechanic nullifies avoidance for short periods throughout the fight (I think anyway, I'd love a confirmation on that). Unfortunately it looks like loggerhead didn't turn on for heroic mode, but I know my druid off-tank died at least once to an 18k melee followed by a 30k Impale and an 8k DoT tick, all in the span of half a second. That made for an amusing Acheron report in raid chat. I think Barkskin wore off about a second before that.

Since the heroic encounters are what I'll be gearing for primarily, shifting allocation to more EH makes sense. I think with some work I could get close to the 52k that Meloree has.


If Gormok's knockdown doesn't nullify avoidance, Icehowl's stun certainly does. Neither were a tank-check in any way in 10H, though. With a bleed, a stun, and spike damage like what killed your druid, I'm sticking with EH all the way. I'll be leaning on 55k raidbuffed tonight, and that combo probably wouldn't kill me.

New Content. Can't wait.

--
Meloree, <Edge>, Garona
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:26 am

Meloree wrote:If Gormok's knockdown doesn't nullify avoidance, Icehowl's stun certainly does. Neither were a tank-check in any way in 10H, though. With a bleed, a stun, and spike damage like what killed your druid, I'm sticking with EH all the way. I'll be leaning on 55k raidbuffed tonight, and that combo probably wouldn't kill me.

New Content. Can't wait.

I was sort of amused by that encounter as well, because it's the one encounter I can think of so far in the game where we can actually make good use of all 3 of our raiding holy paladins at one time. Each one beacons one of the three tanks,and heals the current tank (to make sure that everyone's being healed through the debuff even while off-tanking).

For a little while, I tried having them use a "Bacon Circle" where each beaconed one tank and healed another, such that each tank had a direct healer and beacon heals, but while that was more efficient on total healing throughput, it didn't do as well for keeping the current tank alive.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7739
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Petrus » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:35 am

I was leapfrogging with my beacons - Beacon the second tank, heal the first tank until the third tank starts tanking, then heal the third tank. Switch after third tank to beacon on first tank, then heal third tank until second tank takes over. It rotates but works well.

And interestingly enough I am going to be screaming at these guys to get all epic gems and stack as much EH as possible because this fight requires such intense healing throughput that they need to be able to survive a lot. EH is definitely the way to go for ToC Hardmodes.
User avatar
Petrus
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 940
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:45 am
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby kanst » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:55 am

Petrus wrote:I was leapfrogging with my beacons - Beacon the second tank, heal the first tank until the third tank starts tanking, then heal the third tank. Switch after third tank to beacon on first tank, then heal third tank until second tank takes over. It rotates but works well.

And interestingly enough I am going to be screaming at these guys to get all epic gems and stack as much EH as possible because this fight requires such intense healing throughput that they need to be able to survive a lot. EH is definitely the way to go for ToC Hardmodes.


We are moving into hard modes tonight, and after reading the posts on here I may be regemming/enchanting to squeeze out some more health.
Image
kanst
 
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 9:02 am

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Petrus » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:04 am

The fact that some of our tanks don't have all epic gems yet is one of the things I'm really REALLY going to push. They need to upgrade if we're doing HMs.
User avatar
Petrus
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 940
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:45 am
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby JU1CYFRU1T » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:10 pm

Meloree wrote:Alternatively, if you're "partially" stacking stam, then the "correct order" would be:
Enchant health to chest
Skip avoidance socket bonuses picked up with a yellow gem
Skip avoidance bonuses picked up with a red gem
Skip 6 stam socket bonuses picked up a yellow gem, enchant 18 stam to shield
PVP Shoulder enchant
18 stam to glvoes over agility, Skip 6 stam socket bonuses picked up with a red gem
Skip 9 stam bonuses picked up with a yellow gem
Skip 9 stam bonuses picked up with a red gem.


Okay... let me start by saying that I feel like a child who is sitting at a table full of adults talking. Not only am I new to WoW (started in February of this year), but I didn't start tanking until the beginning of August (iirc)... so I am still learning. I think I am following along with what everyone is saying, but I want to make sure.

First, in Meloree's post (quoted) these are the steps that I want to take (in this order) to get more Stam (EH?) at the cheapest avoidance cost? I drop my defense enchant on my chest for the 275 healt FIRST (more or less), etc? Is that right? Basically I am "reading"
  • Get to defense minimum (540)
  • Start stacking EH over avoidance via the list above
  • After activating metas (using agil/stam gems) ignore *most* socket bonuses...

Or is all of this stuff WAY above my gear-level? By that I mean, are these things that I shouldn't be concerned about at all due to my horrible gear? Here is MY ARMORY if you want to see where I am at. I JUST got the Seal of the Pantheon to drop from Loken last night, so I can start re-gemming today for the Ulduar run tonight (Armory hasn't updated my trinket yet). I have 553 defense with the current setup and the HoL trinket. I am re-gemming today, and don't want to equip a bunch of gems that I am just going to break next week.
JU1CYFRU1T
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:16 am

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:29 pm

Long version: For tanking progression content, meaning content which you are appropriately geared for or slightly under-geared for, you want to stack effective health. Which means:
1) Hit the 540 defense minimum
2) Stack stamina to the sky if you can

Once you're appropriately or slightly overgeared for the content you're tanking, you'll notice, because you won't see AD saving you from death very often anymore. Once you're in that position, shifting some of your gems or enchants around to pick up a little more avoidance is an option. It is by no means required, and in this very thread we've been trying to figure out if there's a way to come up with a clear cut way to determine whether it's actually any better than just stacking stamina.

Short version: at your gear level, and considering the content you're about to head into, you should be using one 10 Agi / 15 stam gem to activate your meta, and stuffing blue gems in every slot you can find, enchanting stamina everywhere you can, etc. The one exception I would suggest is to make sure you keep your 540 defense skill, if necessary by using sockets and enchants. The list Meloree posted will help you make the most efficient choices in that regard, i.e. picking up the most avoidance at the cost of the least stamina (i.e. use a 10 def / 15 stam gem to pick up 6 and 9 stam socket bonuses before switching your chest enchant from health to defense).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7739
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Playdoh » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:31 pm

Meloree wrote:Alternatively, if you're "partially" stacking stam, then the "correct order" would be:
Enchant health to chest
Skip avoidance socket bonuses picked up with a yellow gem
Skip avoidance bonuses picked up with a red gem
Skip 6 stam socket bonuses picked up a yellow gem, enchant 18 stam to shield
PVP Shoulder enchant
18 stam to glvoes over agility, Skip 6 stam socket bonuses picked up with a red gem
Skip 9 stam bonuses picked up with a yellow gem
Skip 9 stam bonuses picked up with a red gem.
Meloree, <Edge>, Garona


I was confused about what Meloree and Theckhd were doing here. Took me about 5 times reading it :(. BUT THANKS I got it now.

Yes, i think it's interesting the health to chest is the 1st thing to consider for more stamina. Or that the pvp shoulder enchant is as far down on the list as what it is.
Playdoh
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 10:55 am
Location: VA

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Meloree » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:20 pm

@JUICYFRUIT: You're also going to have to excercise some judgement with respect to said list, with regards to maintaining uncrittable. The PVP shoulder enchant can be extremely helpful there, it lowers your defence minimum to 536. If you're struggling with the defence minimum, enduring (10def/15stam) gems to pick up stam socket bonuses will have a much higher appeal. Remember, too, that the bar none cheapest place to trade avoidance for stamina is in the trinkets, by a long way, and so it might be worth making quite a number of other trades to swap out your seal of the pantheon for another stamina trinket, even including defence to chest.

Theck and I both wrote from the perspective of someone no longer in the least bit concerned with defence, as between high-end Ulduar gear, and low end ToC gear, we're both well over the minimum without really trying. I know I certainly struggled with the defence minimum all the way through Ulduar progression, basically until Thorim finally relented and dropped a Fate's Clutch.

@Playdoh: PVP shoulder enchant is well down the list, but on an absolute cost basis everything up to skipping 9 stam bonuses are within ~10% of each other. Theck's post has the numbers, and it's too far down to quote easily, but if I remember correctly, health to chest is a 1.092 ratio, PVP Shoulder enchant is 1.167, and it climbs more rapidly from there to 1.667 for the yellow 9-stam socket.

--
Meloree, <Edge>, Garona
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: On Progression MT Gearing

Postby Meyrinn » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:41 pm

Heroic 10 didn't really seem that damage was the problem. I only have 47.5K fully raid buffed and my 10s Heroic team didn't have Commanding Shout or Imp Buff so I was only at like 45.5K and not once did the 1-up proc trigger to save me unless it was already a wipe. A few times my under 35% warning went off, but it wasn't like I was in any real danger. We one shot everything except FC and Anub. FC took 6 tries, and we have 36 attempts left on Anub. We decided to wait until more information came out or until we could formulate a good strategy to deal with phase 2. We had alot of noobfails on kiting the spikes, and it wasn't even close. The chased person would run willy nilly and the spikes would hit the permafrost in like 5 seconds. We're nowhere near a top end raiding guild and have zero hard mode tanking gear from Uld25 yet. Damn the RNG on loot! We have good players and amazing healers, but we only raid 25s 2 or 3 days a week. Its supposed to be 3 but we've run into an issue with people quitting WoW out of shear boredom or leaving us for a better progressed guild. We were in fron early on but people got sick of the endless wiping on hardmodes and leaving instances uncleared and we lost alot of members.
Meyrinn
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:03 am

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Lionizer and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Lionizer and 1 guest