Interaction between multiple SoV stacks - BUG

[Rhiannon]

As this is somewhat off-topic from the original thread, starting a new thread for it.

After looking through a log Theck posted I was curious as to why the procs from his SoV were so small even after he had his SoV dot (aka Holy Vengeance) stacked to 5, and took several more seconds to reach full strength. It turns out the strength of an individual's SoV proc is dependent on the size of the smallest HV stack on the mob. In Theck's case, he had ret paladins in his raid, and ret paladins take considerably longer to stack their HV (due to slower swing speed and none of their strikes applying the DoT). Only once both ret paladins each had a five stack of their HV did his SoV procs hit full strength.

To confirm this I tested myself today on a dummy:

Using a low level weapon to minimise weapon damage range, removed libram + trinkets for constant ap during testing.

Character sheet weapon range = 1011 - 1019, 1015 average

With HV @ 5, SoV proc average non-crit = 385

385 / 1015 = 37.9%, as one would expect with 5/5 seals of the pure.

As soon as another paladin puts a single stack of HV up on the dummy, proc drops down to average of 77.

77 / 1015 = 7.6%, as one would expect with 5/5 seals of the pure and a 1 stack of HV.

With my 5 stack and the other paladin's 2 stack, proc is 154

154 / 1015 = 15.2%, as one would expect with 5/5 seals of the pure and a 2 stack of HV.

[theckhd]

Also from the original thread:

There's a bug report thread here on the wow forums in case anyone feels the need to add additional information or bump it.

[Rhiannon]

It occurred to me that it would be worthwhile to see whether this bug extends to the Judgement as well, and strangely enough, it seems the exact reverse is occuring when judging. To put the two situations side by side:

The strength of an individual's SoV proc is dependent on the size of the smallest HV stack on the mob.

The strength of an individual's JoV is dependent on the size of the largest HV stack on the mob.

The testing was as follows:

I first tested what my judgement of vengeance was hitting for when I was hitting the dummy myself:

0 stacks - 686
1 stacks - 754
2 stacks - 823
3 stacks - 892
4 stacks - 960
5 stacks - 1,028

1,028 / 686 = 49.9% so that's all working as expected, 10% extra per stack.

Another paladin kept a 1 stack of HV on the same dummy whilst I kept a 5 stack up, and my judgements still hit for 1,028 damage, unlike with the SoV proc case.

I then didn't attack the dummy at all, and the other paladin kept a 5 stack up. My judgements still hit for the 5 stack value of 1,028 damage. Then I put a 1 stack of my own up with the other paladin keeping 5 stack, and still my judgements hit for 1,028 damage. The other paladin then put a 4 stack up, and I put a 2 stack up, and my judgements hit for 960 damage.

[steadypal]

would that make seal of righteousness our seal of choice while tanking heroics then if we have a ret in the group? cause geesh 12 seconds for them to get a 5stack is kinda MEH...

[theckhd]

would that make seal of righteousness our seal of choice while tanking heroics then if we have a ret in the group? cause geesh 12 seconds for them to get a 5stack is kinda MEH...

My guess is no. Let's run the numbers:

You'd lose 80 or 160 TPS from the SoV glyph (if you have it equipped) by using SoR instead of SoV.

Looking at the numbers from the Damage and DPS analysis:

Code: Select all

Ability   DPS   Glyphed    TPS   Glyphed
ShoR      664       0     1840       0 
HotR      492       0     1363       0 
Cons      382       0     1058       0 
JoV       252     277      697     767 
AS         71     142      197     394 
HoW       281       0      778       0 
SoV       459       0     1273       0 
VDoT      321       0      889       0 
HS        149       0      414       0 
Melee     736       0     1073       0 

SoV stack threat output is around 1.2k at 5-stacks, so you could expect it to be maybe half that value (on average) during the ramp-up, or 600 TPS.
The SoV DoT also provides 889 TPS at a 5-stack, which would be a little lower during the ramp-up time, but would still be a solid 800 TPS as long as you're fighting for more than 10 seconds or so (our ramp-up time is superb, something like 4 seconds iirc).
Estimating numbers for SoR off of this graph, SoR was behind full-strength SoV by around 1k. So SoR could be estimated at (proc+dot+glyph - 1k) = (1.2k+0.9k+80)-1k, or about 1.2k TPS.
Compared this to the "weak" version of SoV at (0.6k+0.9k+80)=1.5k.

So SoV should still be ahead. And it also has the benefit of giving AoE aggro by spreading the DoT to secondary mobs with HotR.

[steadypal]

so sov judge works in reverse and helps ret out from our 5stack,,, their slow stacking makes our 5stack dbl hit suffer,,,


does rets slow ramp up time also effect our 5stack dot tick dmg? or just the dbl hit?

[theckhd]

so sov judge works in reverse and helps ret out from our 5stack,,, their slow stacking makes our 5stack dbl hit suffer,,,


does rets slow ramp up time also effect our 5stack dot tick dmg? or just the dbl hit?

Their slow ramp-up time only negatively affects our procs, not our 5-stack damage or our Judgements.
Our fast ramp-up time positively affects their Judgements, and doesn't negatively affect anything (for them).

It's a net positive for Ret, and a net negative for Prot, as long as you assume we always have a higher stack than they do.

It's a little more complicated on target-switching fights - we might gain a slightly higher Judgement here or there if we switch to a target a Ret has a full-stack on, and their proc damage will be slightly lower until we build our 5-stack if they're still on that target. But since our stack build-up time is very fast, it's a pretty small issue compared to the single-target case.

[Ragingsoul]

did someone report this yet? I couldn't really check how much it ticked for during the raid, but my initial aggro was really low tonight, with a new retri in the guild/group that we didn't have before. a feral druid died 2 times within the first 15sec from over aggro with the lack of hit on new gear and this bug. (because I can't see how the tick would be responsible for this only). to be fair, I think I saw recount go to 9k dps in less than 10 sec.

[toothdecaykills]

did someone report this yet? I couldn't really check how much it ticked for during the raid, but my initial aggro was really low tonight, with a new retri in the guild/group that we didn't have before. a feral druid died 2 times within the first 15sec from over aggro with the lack of hit on new gear and this bug. (because I can't see how the tick would be responsible for this only). to be fair, I think I saw recount go to 9k dps in less than 10 sec.

I've seen a few bug report threads pop up on the forums as well as a blue response.

Has anybody been able to see if yesterday's PTR build fixed it? I see this issue hurt a lot at the beginning stages of a fight, especially with multiple Ret paladins (one of which is notoriously slow at engaging).

[Rhiannon]

Fixed according to the latest PTR notes for 3.2.2.

Seal of Corruption and Seal of Vengeance: These seals will now only use the debuff stacks generated by the attacking paladin to determine the damage done by the seal and by the judgement.