dodge/parry or block?

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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby ulushnar » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:14 pm

Vexryn wrote:And hrm... I've still never seen anything on this forum or another that specifically stated being block-capped is an outright alternative to being defense-capped.


That's because it's not, really. The gearing requirements to get block capped are more intensive than reaching 540 defense, and even then there's variables that will rob you of block-capping.

I mean, look at the gearlist you assembled. Even with enchants, it's presumably far inferior to your MT gear. So it's at best a gimmick outfit which you can wear and say "I tanked heroics and I wasn't at 540 defense!" to which most people would say "so what?"
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby gokuson » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:23 pm

so it is basically -30% avoidance that im going after. and the way the combat table goes is:

miss / dodge,parry/ block/ crit if <540 def or hit if >=540

what i want to do is have 102.4% while that debuff is on me and be unhittable, and therefore uncrittable with my shield up. additionally, the blockrating gear is usually tagged with blockvalue, which will be perfect for mitigating thorim's fast hits. however that 30% looks like its going to be too hard to comeby, i was hoping it would only be a -10-15% penalty
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:30 pm

We've fought him a number of times when he didn't unbalancing strike (high dps?).

We've also fought him a number of times when he DID unbalancing strike, and a warrior blew cooldowns to live through it, because Thorim was at 5% by that time.

Keep in mind that Unbalancing strike also can miss, though I believe it can NOT be dodged, parried, or blocked. When it hits, it hits, and if you're not over 540 defense, it will crit.

I could be WRONG about that part though.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby gokuson » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:43 pm

Isetnefret wrote:We've fought him a number of times when he didn't unbalancing strike (high dps?).

We've also fought him a number of times when he DID unbalancing strike, and a warrior blew cooldowns to live through it, because Thorim was at 5% by that time.

Keep in mind that Unbalancing strike also can miss, though I believe it can NOT be dodged, parried, or blocked. When it hits, it hits, and if you're not over 540 defense, it will crit.

I could be WRONG about that part though.


good call, also i'm running a spec with PoJ instead of vindication because our ret pally had it, and i know that helps alot agaisnt the strike damage itself. For our best attempt he died right at the begining of part 2, so we didn't have the debuff. So i will use my vindication/glyph of salvation spec for this fight. Thanks a lot
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Scorpid sting = greater chance of unbalancing strike missing completely.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Soralin » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:10 pm

Vexryn wrote:And hrm... I've still never seen anything on this forum or another that specifically stated being block-capped is an outright alternative to being defense-capped. Do you have any other references on this to direct us towards? I cannot find a single sticky post about block caps or defense caps on these forums indicating that any form of block cap makes you crit-immune (not that I'm going to gear for it necessarily, but this is an interesting point of theorycrafting for me).


Being "block capped" is increasing your block chance enough that it pushes "ordinary hit" off the incoming attack table. This means that any melee attack on you will either be avoided (miss/dodge/parry) or (partially or fully) blocked.

A blocked hit cannot be a critical hit, therefore if you are block capped you are also "immune" to critical strikes from NPC melee attacks. This of course assumes that you're facing the mob, not sitting down, not stunned, etc etc.

In short it is an alternative but given that its easy to get passively crit immune (except in situations like Thorim's unbalancing strike) it's not really an "outright alternative" to use your words.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Soralin » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:12 pm

gokuson wrote:additionally, the blockrating gear is usually tagged with blockvalue, which will be perfect for mitigating thorim's fast hits. however that 30% looks like its going to be too hard to comeby, i was hoping it would only be a -10-15% penalty

Especially in hardmode, but even in normal mode: stacking block value over stamina/avoidance is a bad idea for Thorim. (IMO) deliberately stacking block value in any situation where you don't block the majority of each hit is going to place you at a serious disadvantage to stacking stamina/avoidance.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Digren » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:01 am

Vexryn wrote:And hrm... I've still never seen anything on this forum or another that specifically stated being block-capped is an outright alternative to being defense-capped. Do you have any other references on this to direct us towards? I cannot find a single sticky post about block caps or defense caps on these forums indicating that any form of block cap makes you crit-immune (not that I'm going to gear for it necessarily, but this is an interesting point of theorycrafting for me).

Here's the last time it came up:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23068

That's linked from the discussion text at the top of my gem and enchant guide.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby kanst » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:17 am

We just use a druid in PVP gear for Thorim. I wear block value gear, when he drops I pop wings and get tricks/md and put out as much threat as I can, when I get unbalancing the Druid taunts and tanks until he dies. That seems to be the easiest way to counter that boss.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Wrathy » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:44 am

kanst wrote:We just use a druid in PVP gear for Thorim. I wear block value gear, when he drops I pop wings and get tricks/md and put out as much threat as I can, when I get unbalancing the Druid taunts and tanks until he dies. That seems to be the easiest way to counter that boss.

Why should either tank have to die? taunt bouncing for unbalancing strikes and adequate dps and thorim should be dead well before his attacks kill you. If you are basing a strategy on this tank dies then this tank dies and hope that he is dead by then, its a poor strategy (with the exception of Assembly of Iron hard mode).

Block value is not as beneficial for Thorim as an effective health set is.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby kanst » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:27 am

Wrathy wrote:Why should either tank have to die? taunt bouncing for unbalancing strikes and adequate dps and thorim should be dead well before his attacks kill you. If you are basing a strategy on this tank dies then this tank dies and hope that he is dead by then, its a poor strategy (with the exception of Assembly of Iron hard mode).

Block value is not as beneficial for Thorim as an effective health set is.


Our healers told us it would make their lives easier if they only had to heal one tank. Having to prepare for tank switches followed by huge incoming damage made their lives more difficult. On normal we still tank swap each unbalancing but on hard where the healers are already very taxed it was a huge help to just have our bear tank it. We also dont need to switch much, our first kill the bear died at 18%, then 5%, the two kills since then he has tanked the whole time until Thorim is dead.

Another reason is at around 6-7 stacks of thorims buff it becomes necessary to pop some kind of cooldown to survive the actual unbalancing strike, if you are taunting after it you waste whatever extra time there is on that CD. Overall a bear tank smoothed over the whole fight for us.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Wrathy » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:35 am

sounds like it works for your guild, however what you outlined is more of a healing issue. Skilled healers should have no problem with tank swaps, even if they are not called in vent. A nice raid warning says X tank has unbalancing strike. At that time find your friendly MT window, or ToToT and heal.

As for the choice on when to pop cds, i rarely ever use anything until the stacks break 10, but then again, I am not tanking when i have the debuf
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Soralin » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:55 pm

kanst wrote:We just use a druid in PVP gear for Thorim. I wear block value gear, when he drops I pop wings and get tricks/md and put out as much threat as I can, when I get unbalancing the Druid taunts and tanks until he dies. That seems to be the easiest way to counter that boss.

Our druid also tanks Thorim wearing stacked resilience gear. With tricks and MD, after adds are cleaned up I pop wings and go as hard as I can and sometimes its a struggle to catch up with him. Once I catch up I can almost follow a full rotation and stay just behind him, so his threat generation even in pvp gear is quite good.

Having said that he's extremely well geared so perhaps his high level of threat is related more to that than his skill.

The strategy isn't based on the druid tank dying (at least our version of it isn't) - we start cooldown rotations (Paladin Bubble/Hand of Sacrifice, Priest GS/PS) at 8 stacks of Thorims buff and once all the cooldowns are up, I taunt and shield wall followed by the other tank taunting and shield walling - usually the boss dies before the second shield wall is up. Failing that the bear's barkskin will be back up.

There have been situations where the druid has died simply because he hasn't been topped back up following an unbalancing strike, but they're not intentional - the intention is for the druid to tank it start to finish with external cooldowns and tanks taunting/blowing shield wall towards the end. The last few weeks we've been able to execute it perfectly (and by that I mean the tank rotation and healing.... idiots still die to stupid shit.

(Might be worth mentioning this is 25 hardmode)
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