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Expertise & Hit

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Expertise & Hit

Postby Pallymar » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:12 pm

To what extent is it *necessary* to make sure that expertise is capped at 26 and hit is capped at 8%? Is this only necessary for a TPS set or would an EH / BV set also require expertise and hit to be capped? More to the point; how far should I go from a min/max perspective to ensure that expertise and hit are capped (obviously noting that increasing the budget for expertise and hit, decreases the budget for other stats)?

From what I can find while searching around is that hit needs to be above 6% for the purposes of taunt and Expertise needs to be in the 20+ range, but I can't seem to find *definitives*, if that makes any sense given that there are few absolutes in tanking (ie. 540 defense on raid bosses).

Thanks in advance!
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:20 pm

It's not necessary. It helps, sure. But unless you're making a threat/block set, most of prefer to gem and enchant for avoidance. Also, if you're worried about taunts missing, there is the glyph that could help you out.
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby xstratax » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:33 pm

If Im not mistaken, they have yet to change HoR to Melee Hit cap, meaning that getting 8% hit would still be required to not miss, and RD can be an issue if you only want to pick up one mob.

I personally HATE missing on any major ability (usually read as missing with AS or HoW), so I aim for getting hit capped while maintaining enough survival/Avoid. Expertise I view as providing 2 utilities, a TPS increase, and a slight boost to Survival. Less Boss Parries is always good, imo.

But again, thats my preference.
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby Isetnefret » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:13 pm

Or stamina (RE: What most people gem/enchant for)
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby Wrathy » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:18 pm

From my experience, in a gear set that is not purely focused on threat, hit takes a back seat to Stamina, AC, and Avoidance. I have never had problems in my effective health set (with 88 hit) holding aggro over dps that are consistently in the 7k dps range. Hit is a very significant stat when it comes to a threat set, but it is by no means necessary in order for you to tank, and with the current paladin build (pre 3.2.2).
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby Ragingsoul » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:40 pm

Wrathy wrote:From my experience, in a gear set that is not purely focused on threat, hit takes a back seat to Stamina, AC, and Avoidance. I have never had problems in my effective health set (with 88 hit) holding aggro over dps that are consistently in the 7k dps range. Hit is a very significant stat when it comes to a threat set, but it is by no means necessary in order for you to tank, and with the current paladin build (pre 3.2.2).


nah, I would say it depends on how much you loose or gain depending on what you need.
Look at the crafted boots, and Ignis ones. one will have more stamina with the socket, but you loose the hit rating. the avoidance is pretty much the same. So the question is, is maybe 200 more hp worth loosing 1.5% hit?
when you hit 38400hp unbuffed like me, 200 more or 200 less isn't gonna make a difference, but 1.5% hit, it's 18.75% of the melee hit cap on ONE item, it's a LOT.

it's one of the reason I'm NOT going for full EH sets without paying attention to the other stats, a little bit of everything is always better than everything in 1 bag. (apply this in real life, with banks money placements and nutrition too.)

To reply to Pallymar, you get 16 expertise from talents+ glyph, taking 1 item with expertise will generally put you to around 20, which is more than enough. As for the hit, I personally don't like going under 5 or 6% in any type of gear, but tanking isn't a problem if you have lower hit. you will just make less aggro, it only depends on what you are tanking, and what your dps can pull out.
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby badgermonkey » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:55 am

I like to keep myself at or above 26 Expertise since I now have Reckoning (and parry gibs still scare me :P ). But then again, I'm over the softcap WITHOUT the Glyph ofVengeance... there are oodles of Expertise on everything at the moment.
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby kanst » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:04 am

I go with the strategy of never gemming/enchanting for expertise of hit. But if there is a piece with def/avoidance/hit or exp then I am using it. I dont like to tank below 22 exp (with glyph) or 150 hit, it just feels like too much of a threat loss.

I also carry around a lot of gear to mix and match, my hit varies basically boss to boss depending on what I am concerned about. For farm bosses I wear my threat set which is hit capped and has about 2k block value, for harder bosses I drop my hit and BV for more avoidance and health.
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby Andenthal » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:29 pm

xstratax wrote:If Im not mistaken, they have yet to change HoR to Melee Hit cap, meaning that getting 8% hit would still be required to not miss, and RD can be an issue if you only want to pick up one mob.


All Taunts are considered "spells", Warrior, Druid, DK, all of them. Luckily, with the glyph you can cap your taunt before your other main abilities.
26.32 rating per % for spells
32.79 rating per % for melee

With the glyph you only need (26.32 x 9) = 236.88 (239) Hit Rating to be capped for HoR and RD.
Versus if it was considered a melee ability, you would need (32.79 x8) = 262.32 (263) Hit Rating.

Not a huge difference, but something to consider as most tanks only look at their Melee part of their character sheet.
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby Epimer » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:14 pm

I'm almost certain that taunts were changed to work off melee hit, which is precisely the point of having the various taunt glyphs set at 8% hit, but I can't find a source to verify that.
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby NYRIN1 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:29 am

*edit

i obviously need to do more research myself, post retracted.
Last edited by NYRIN1 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby xstratax » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:14 pm

Nyrin1 wrote:I have yet to bash people that post, but geez!!! did you do any reasearch at all before posting this?? taunts have been melee hit rateing for QUITE some time now. Please!!! Avoid giving people the wrong information and know what your talking about before posting on this site.



Have you done your research? RD is on Melee Cap for sure, but as that thread shows HoR is not.
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Re: Expertise & Hit

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:05 pm

Epimer wrote:I'm almost certain that taunts were changed to work off melee hit, which is precisely the point of having the various taunt glyphs set at 8% hit, but I can't find a source to verify that.

Nope, taunts are spells, use spell hit, and use the 17% base spell miss chance.
xstratax wrote:Have you done your research? RD is on Melee Cap for sure, but as that thread shows HoR is not.

RD works exactly like HoR for spell miss, using the 17% cap. See below.
Nyrin1 wrote:I have yet to bash people that post, but geez!!! did you do any reasearch at all before posting this?? taunts have been melee hit rateing for QUITE some time now. Please!!! Avoid giving people the wrong information and know what your talking about before posting on this site.

Perhaps before bashing another person's post, you should check to see that you're correct. A simple search for taunt + "spell hit" + "melee hit" turns up several posts demonstrating that you're wrong.

To quote someone who has their facts straight:
Sabindeus wrote:To be more specific and correct:

Taunts are on the spell hit table, and thus need 17% to be capped. Your new paladin friend is correct.

What you are remembering is when they allowed bonuses to melee hit to apply to Taunt spells. This did not make them any less on the spell hit table, it simply allowed tanks, who were already stacking +hit gear, to have that hit apply to their taunts.

Additionally and separately, in 3.0 they merged melee hit rating and spell hit rating into a single stat. So now the melee hit you gain from your general purpose hit rating is still applying to the spell hit table of your Taunt spells.

It's a bit confusing with all the history, but that's how it works.

Coincidentally, with the 8% given from the usual taunt glyphs, it takes the same amount of hit rating to be melee hit capped (against bosses) and spell hit capped on your taunts (also against bosses).
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