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3.2.2 threat nerf

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby Belarkan » Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:40 am

Gamingdevil wrote:Not to mention, it doesn't make sense that you can avoid it by blocking, but you're raid can't. It's an AoE, isn't it?


There are two different things with frozen blow.
A raid wide damage, and an additional frost damage.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=63511 <<< this is hopefully only for the tank.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=64545 <<< that one is for the others.
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby Zakkarai » Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:05 am

Belarkan wrote:How to you block all hodir's melee ? He hits me between 4 to 6K with 1600 blocked.


I'm not sure whether or not you're keeping up debuffs constantly and/or are shielded constantly, but during Frozen Blows I am never getting hit for more than 3.9K damage pre-block. My block value is sitting just over 4000 most of the time.
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby Lid » Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:09 am

Belarkan wrote:How to you block all hodir's melee ? He hits me between 4 to 6K with 1600 blocked.

I'm not the guy who made the claim, but...

I usually have sacred shield, and a disc priest bubble on me whenever frozen blows starts. I usually eat the first frozen blow if it lands, but with all the absorbs on me, it's rare that I take additional frozen blows.

But to try and gear to completely avoid it, would be taking quite a risk - if something happens and you for some odd reason, don't block and absorb for the full melee hit, INC 40K FROST DAMAGE.

Sorry for going off topic.
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby nutron » Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 am

Zakkarai wrote:I know this is somewhat off-topic, but in response to the comment about Vezax and Hodir:

For Hodir hard mode, wear your block set. If you've got a solid block set, you'll experience the new post-3.2 (vindication 100% uptime/doubled BV from items) effect I was shocked and pleased to discover: Hodir cannot hurt you during Frozen Blows. If you completely block the physical component of the Frozen Blows attack, the frost damage never lands. Add the extra threat from a Strength-oriented set to the mix, and the fact that most of our attacks employ holy damage that scales off of the buffs/debuffs, and I might even go so far as to say it trivializes the encounter.

At the end of the last Hodir hard mode I tanked, we beat the timer by 30 seconds, my TPS spiked up to near 20K (while caster TPS was likewise spiking up over 12K), and at the end of the encounter I had taken less damage from frozen blows than anyone else in the raid, which is to say I only took the AOE component that everyone takes, and my tanking talents and blood elf racials reduced it correspondingly.

As far as Vezax goes, I refuse to tank it. It is a gimmicky fight that punishes mana-using, spell-casting tanks. Something as simple as adding a "debuff" to his physical attacks that negates the effect of his aura on the tank would have made it universally tankable. There are other tanks in the guild at the same equipment level who aren't penalized for their resource mechanic, so they can tank the fight. The only way to win that sort of game is not to play.


Tanking this fight as a paladin is easy and moreso trivialises the encounter (yes its already trivial at this point).. so your last statement is inaccurate). The mana penalty can easily be avoided as i've pointed out and other tank classes would have A: alot less threat, B: Less survivability.
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby Belarkan » Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:50 am

Zakkarai wrote:
Belarkan wrote:How to you block all hodir's melee ? He hits me between 4 to 6K with 1600 blocked.


I'm not sure whether or not you're keeping up debuffs constantly and/or are shielded constantly, but during Frozen Blows I am never getting hit for more than 3.9K damage pre-block. My block value is sitting just over 4000 most of the time.


You're pretty lucky to get shield procs on the physical hit then. I get:
[23:50:44.046] Hodir hits Belarkan 24240 (B: 1665)
[23:50:44.906] Hodir Coups gelés Belarkan 12110 (A: 4019, R: 20000)
[23:50:51.718] Hodir hits Belarkan 4478 (B: 1665)
[23:50:52.578] Hodir Coups gelés Belarkan 12792 (A: 3337, R: 20000)
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby pugs » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:16 pm

So guessing any red gem slots will be getting the Str/Stam gems instead of dodge/stam or agilit/stam?
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby majiben » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:34 pm

pugs wrote:So guessing any red gem slots will be getting the Str/Stam gems instead of dodge/stam or agilit/stam?

Not at all.
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby Selinaria » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:21 pm

Majiben wrote:
pugs wrote:So guessing any red gem slots will be getting the Str/Stam gems instead of dodge/stam or agilit/stam?

Not at all.


We will be fine for threat after the patch. This is just equalizing things since we are so much stronger threat wise then the other tanks. Really no reason to go changing gemming around or anything like that. If you really think about it, most fights that threat actually is a concern revolves around dps getting buffed and tanks not getting the same magnitude of buff. Assuming everyone is playing optimally (see also: using threat reduction as is intended) then in a straight fight, threat is of little concern.
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby sublimated » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:38 pm

I'm not sure why everyone's panicking so much about this (nerf?).

Yeah, sure. Nobody likes a nerf. But I'd rather this nerf than to go back to mix/matching gear TBC style and going around with a giant spinning pink lollipop SP weapon to whack baddies over the head with and doing null white damage.

I think people really need to sit back and think how far we've come before y'all start screaming bloody murder.

In fact, how many times did any tanking paladin from TBC tell him/herself how nice it'd be if our threat scaled off a normal tanking stat like STR or BV.

Yeah, thought so.
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby Kvaern » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:48 pm

sublimated wrote:I'm not sure why everyone's panicking so much about this (nerf?).

Yeah, sure. Nobody likes a nerf. But I'd rather this nerf than to go back to mix/matching gear TBC style and going around with a giant spinning pink lollipop SP weapon to whack baddies over the head with and doing null white damage.

I think people really need to sit back and think how far we've come before y'all start screaming bloody murder.

In fact, how many times did any tanking paladin from TBC tell him/herself how nice it'd be if our threat scaled off a normal tanking stat like STR or BV.

Yeah, thought so.


Previous ills and mistakes are no excuse for making new ones and I don't see how TBC gearing relates to this topic anyway.

That being said the 3.2.2 nerf is a complete non issue.
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:53 pm

sublimated wrote:I'm not sure why everyone's panicking so much about this (nerf?).

Yeah, sure. Nobody likes a nerf. But I'd rather this nerf than to go back to mix/matching gear TBC style and going around with a giant spinning pink lollipop SP weapon to whack baddies over the head with and doing null white damage.

I think people really need to sit back and think how far we've come before y'all start screaming bloody murder.

In fact, how many times did any tanking paladin from TBC tell him/herself how nice it'd be if our threat scaled off a normal tanking stat like STR or BV.

Yeah, thought so.

It's pretty unfair to characterize people as panicking. Of the few that seem upset, it's more about the process than the actual nerf, which most of us realize is pretty slight.
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby majiben » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:04 am

Fridmarr wrote:It's pretty unfair to characterize people as panicking. Of the few that seem upset, it's more about the process than the actual nerf, which most of us realize is pretty slight.
I would say there's a fair degree of panic just by looking at how many people are saying they are planning to gem str over agility or dodge.
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby Lykaon » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:01 am

My Str right now is 1113. My stamina is 2226. My spellpower won't change... at all. How crazy is that?

I really don't think there's anything to be afraid of here. Maybe I run with undergeared DPS, but I'm so far out in front with the threat that they could almost cut my threat in half before I needed to start worrying.

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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:27 am

Majiben wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:It's pretty unfair to characterize people as panicking. Of the few that seem upset, it's more about the process than the actual nerf, which most of us realize is pretty slight.
I would say there's a fair degree of panic just by looking at how many people are saying they are planning to gem str over agility or dodge.
On this thread, if I really reach I saw two such posts, if I'm being completely honest I saw zero. Neither of these posts show any indication of someone panicking, they show people making an incorrect assumption about the severity of the changes. People are allowed to be wrong, people are allowed to think these nerfs are worse than they are, without being labeled as some sort of silly QQing chicken little.

Frankly, I'm pretty sick of the attitude of those in the know. The trend seems to be that instead of telling someone that they are wrong, and providing the data to back that up, folks go right to the name calling, flaming, and seriously flawed characterizations of the nature of the post they are responding too. It's like they enter the thread with their mind made up, that since a nerf happened, the community will be up in arms, and they must stomp it out. Instead of responding to the post, they are responding to a perceived community uproar, which isn't really helping anyone and quickly causes a thread to spiral out of control.

In reality, some folks are upset with the logic behind some of the nerfs. Some folks are upset with our threat being decreased, but most folks here do seem to have an appropriate handle on the nature and severity of the changes. When someone is getting carried away about the severity of the nerfs, view it as an opportunity to educate them. It is not an opportunity for flames, and that won't be tolerated here.
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Re: 3.2.2 threat nerf

Postby Venoseth » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:08 pm

An easy way to calculate the change to you is if STR < 1/2 Stam then you're losing spellpower, if STR > 1/2 Stam then you're gaining spellpower. Including the apropraite raid buffs in that formula will vary from person to person. ^^

This, if anyone hasn't already figured it out, is because the scaling TbtL will now give to STR is double (60%) what it gave to stam in 3.2 and before (30%). Which is why Lykaon noticed no change. ^^
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