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Now that we're missing Exocism

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Now that we're missing Exocism

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:44 am

I guess I should weigh in here.

The third point of Crusade is worth around 80 TPS
The SoV glyph is worth around 163 if you have 26 or fewer expertise (with SoV up), and around 81 if you're above 26 but below about 60 expertise.

Each point in SA is around 500 to 750 mp5, depending on damage intake.
The glyph of SA gives you an additional 2%, which used to be additive with the 10% from the old trainer-taught version of SA. Provided that's still the case, it gives a flat 2/5 of a point in SA independent of whether you're 1/2 or 2/2. That would put the glyph at 200-300 mp5.

Conclusions:
Provided you're over 26 expertise (which most tanks are), and under 56 (which most tanks also are), you lose just about the same TPS by dropping to 2/3 Crusade as you do by keeping Crusade and dropping the SoV glyph. However, you gain 2.5x more mana regen from the point in SA than you do from the glyph. So if you absolutely need more mana for Vezax, you're far better-off taking the talent and keeping the glyph. Even more so if you're under the 26 expertise soft-cap without the glyph.

As for the TPS loss of sticking with the glyph and 3/3 Crusade, but running OOM on Vezax, your TPS output will drop considerably because you can't keep up Consecration, and may not even be able to keep up ShoR/HotR. From the Damage and DPS analysis:
Theck wrote:
Code: Select all
Ability   DPS   Glyphed    TPS   Glyphed
ShoR      664       0     1840       0 
HotR      492       0     1363       0 
Cons      382       0     1058       0 
JoV       252     277      697     767 
AS         71     142      197     394 
HoW       281       0      778       0 
SoV       459       0     1273       0 
VDoT      321       0      889       0 
HS        149       0      414       0 
Melee     736       0     1073       0 

Cons is around 1k TPS, ShoR around 1.8k, HotR around 1.3k. Losing even the weakest of those three abilities will be a more significant TPS loss than dropping one point in Crusade. Hell, even having to skip Holy Shield is worse at 400ish TPS, and Holy Shield is our weakest mana-reliant threat generator.

I've never really understood the reluctance to drop a point in Crusade for SA in this scenario. In a theoretical space where you don't have mana constraints (like, oh, every other fight in the game), of course it's an unnecessary threat loss. But on a fight like Vezax that imposes resource constraints, you can't simply look at the talent in a vacuum and say "I don't want to lose that threat," because the resource constraint is a far more serious limitation on your output than anything your threat talents can do for you (Short of untalenting HotR, I guess).
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Re: Now that we're missing Exocism

Postby Wardari » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:24 am

Much love Theck, I may have to be doing this from now on.

theckhd wrote:I've never really understood the reluctance to drop a point in Crusade for SA in this scenario. In a theoretical space where you don't have mana constraints (like, oh, every other fight in the game), of course it's an unnecessary threat loss. But on a fight like Vezax that imposes resource constraints, you can't simply look at the talent in a vacuum and say "I don't want to lose that threat," because the resource constraint is a far more serious limitation on your output than anything your threat talents can do for you (Short of untalenting HotR, I guess).


Well it's more the TPS loss to my entire build across all encounters, most others mana isn't an issue as Divine Plea keeps me high enough. Losing that threat from the 1 point of Crusade (that is ofc providing double benefit in most encounters as the majority of targets are humanoid/undead these days) is acceptable for Vezax, your maths have proved that. It's the loss on all the other encounters where the mana isn't an issue and extra TPS is always welcome - the other option is to just respec back and fourth for Vezax which is doable, I guess Dual Spec and WotLK has just made me lazy as I wouldn't think twice about respeccing for encounters back in TBC.
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Re: Now that we're missing Exocism

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:36 am

I guess it would be one thing if you were breezing through the hard mode every week, and it was an inconvenience. But at that point you could probably afford to just gear for more threat and/or drop Consecration from the rotation and "get away with it."

If you're spending an entire evening working on it as a progression encounter, it's not really that big a deal to respec for the evening. I actually left myself with the 2/2 SA spec for the better part of a week just to see if I noticed any huge threat issues on other fights (which I didn't, 80 TPS really isn't that noticeable in the grand scheme of things - it's like losing 23 STR from one piece of gear, which people probably do all the time when switching to their heavy avoidance set).
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Re: Now that we're missing Exocism

Postby jathitimus » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:26 pm

There is another thing you could do, and although it would be horrible in any other place, I think if you are respecing for the fight its worth considering.

Deflection (5% parry) -> Benidiction (10% less mana cost)

Would fix both your high avoidance issue, give you more room to work with the mana you have, and not change your EH. If you are only slowly being mana starved then maybe only one or two points would do the trick.

Also, careful use of DG and HoSac can help boost SA mana regen in a tight spot.
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Re: Now that we're missing Exocism

Postby Awyndel » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:33 pm

For trash just suck it up, use seal of wisdom/mana potions/pull more/cast different or whatever.

For general vezzax, don't respec/reglyph or substitute, just don't cast concecration at all and have your dps suck it up.

For general hard mode... respec
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Re: Now that we're missing Exocism

Postby Wardari » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:01 am

Awyndel wrote:For trash just suck it up, use seal of wisdom/mana potions/pull more/cast different or whatever.

For general vezzax, don't respec/reglyph or substitute, just don't cast concecration at all and have your dps suck it up.

For general hard mode... respec


Yeah for Trash this wasn't really a big a big deal, i'm doing much AOE threat these days that I end up tanking most of the trash spawns anyway so my incoming damage is giving me plenty of mana through healing - it was more the Vezax issue.
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