Losing Redoubt

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Losing Redoubt

Postby DisRuptive1 » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:09 pm

Is Redoubt really worth it anymore?

I'm pushing almost 2,900 block value in my trash tanking set (which stacks block value) and I have about 1,000 block value in my boss tanking set. What with the diminishing returns with block value and the terrible mitigation it provides against bosses, would it be a bad thing to lose Redoubt to take other talents?

I figure I won't lose too much block in my trash tanking set and I'll lose about 200 block value in my boss tanking gear.
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:43 pm

Why do you stack block value for a trash tanking set?

It's not to do damage, surely.

The DR you speak of does not impact your primary reason to stack BV.


Also, what else are you going to spend the points on?
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:46 pm

If I'm not mistaken, you can only free up 2 points outside the protection tree (51 minimum spent here).
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby DisRuptive1 » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:53 pm

Isetnefret wrote:Why do you stack block value for a trash tanking set?

It's not to do damage, surely.


Gives better (but consistent) mitigation than other stats such as armor. I lean towards EH and avoidance when tanking bosses and try to eschew gear with block value entirely (damn my helm).
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:03 pm

I tank most bosses in my BV set.

The only time I would not wear a BV set is if 2 consecutive blocked hits in my BV set would still kill me. Then it's time to consider avoidance.


It's a tricky issue though, because my block set has only 10% less pure avoidance than my avoidance set.


As I understand it, the DR ONLY applies to the damage gained by ShoR. There is no DR to the mitigation factor of BV. (could be totally wrong)

The only pseudo-DR to the mitigation of BV is the massive damage of boss attacks....but how many bosses actually hit you (30,000-ish armor) for more than 15K damage(net, not gross)?

I also use + armor potion with a +agility potion, typically, as well as wearing Seal of the Pantheon + Defender's Code.


I know I'm going to get hit, when the shit hits the fan, I like having a dodge button to hit, or an armor button to hit, depending on what kind of damage reduction I need at that time. I like the 25 badge trinket even more than D.Code.
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby Iselian » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:51 pm

Isetnefret, I'm guessing (based on your gear and achievements) that you haven't seen too far into Ulduar, namely 25man. I know Auriaya hits me for nearly 15k, I'm fairly sure Kologarn does (our bear does most of the work on him) as well. I know General Vezax hits me for upwards of 25k. Thorim hits like a truck, as does Hodir; guessing about 15-20k per hit.

Dodges and parries become a godsend there. Stacking stamina is all but mandatory. Block simply doesn't scale well enough to start surviving the bigger hits farther into endgame. That being said, Theck did a threat calculation in this post as to when Redoubt can be dropped.
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby majiben » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:54 pm

If you care about survival and not threat you will never drop redoubt. There is no other survival option in it's place.
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby Nadir » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:00 pm

On what encounter do you believe that you should take more damage and at the same time need more threat? I believe we've gone off the deep end when we sacrifice survivability for bigger (and unnecessary) TPS numbers.
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby Corpsicle » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:50 pm

Nadir wrote:On what encounter do you believe that you should take more damage and at the same time need more threat? I believe we've gone off the deep end when we sacrifice survivability for bigger (and unnecessary) TPS numbers.


I can only agree with this. I would only consider speccing out of redoubt if I was losing threat consistently and there were points that I could spend those 3 talent points in that would significantly up my TPS - to the point that I would no longer lose threat consistently. We need a minimum of 51 points total in the prot tree, so with a typical 53/18 build you can free up a maximum of 2 points. You have to keep one point in the prot tree - and if you are going for pure TPS, I guess you could do 4/5 in reckoning, instead of 3/5.

But what are you putting those 2 freed up points in? Conviction? Seals of the pure? There is no way 2/5 seals of the pure or 2% more crit from conviction is anywhere near worth the loss of Redoubt. I understand the argument made against redoubt from a TPS perspective, I just don't see how you gain anywhere near enough TPS to make it worth the survivability loss. We aren't talking a gain of 1000+ TPS (or even close to that), and anything less is going to be insignificant compared to the 7500+ tps we tend to do now in high end gear.

Besides, the 'terrible mitigation' it provides against Bosses adds up over a long fight. Damage not taken, no matter how marginal, remains damage that does not need to be healed up by your healers. While BV is 'terrible mitigation' consider that on our first hard mode Vezax kill last night I blocked over 84,000 damage and our healers were OOM when Vezax died. I'm sure Redoubt proccing led to me blocking some hits I wouldn't have, considering mana was very limited and Holy Shield probably did not have a 100% uptime. I'm also sure that had our healers had to heal up that additional 84k damage, it would have been a wipe.
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:45 am

Iselian wrote:Isetnefret, I'm guessing (based on your gear and achievements) that you haven't seen too far into Ulduar, namely 25man. I know Auriaya hits me for nearly 15k, I'm fairly sure Kologarn does (our bear does most of the work on him) as well. I know General Vezax hits me for upwards of 25k. Thorim hits like a truck, as does Hodir; guessing about 15-20k per hit.

Dodges and parries become a godsend there. Stacking stamina is all but mandatory. Block simply doesn't scale well enough to start surviving the bigger hits farther into endgame. That being said, Theck did a threat calculation in this post as to when Redoubt can be dropped.


I tank MOST bosses in my BV set.


I tank Kologarn in BV set. I haven't gotten to tank Auriaya or Hodir yet, simply because our other tanks don't have a raid-viable offset yet, and I do.

You seem to think that my BV set is my ONLY set. I've stated numerous times in about a billion different threads I carry 4+ sets of gear at all times, and I highly recommend to every tank that you have at least 2.
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:46 am

You know what, ignore my previous post, I didn't address your concern:

I'm guessing (based on your gear and achievements) that you can't possibly have anything relevant to say.



Busted! You got me.
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:48 am

I'm not a proponent of dropping Redoubt (mitigation is mitigation, and I think most people would still take a talent that says "Reduces damage taken from boss melee attacks by 3% per point"), here are numbers:

Theck wrote:The BV break points at which the points in Redoubt actually become useless for threat should be easily calculated. The cap is 3161 BV, so if you let B be the base block value break point when 1.2*B=3161, then the break point with 3/3 Redoubt is 1.3*B=1.3(3161/1.2). Thus:
If you have over 3434 block value with 3/3 Redoubt, you'll see no difference in threat between 2/3 and 3/3 Redoubt
If you have over 3448 block vlaue with 2/3 Redoubt (3736 with 3/3), you'll see no difference in threat between 1/3 and 2/3 Redoubt
If you have over 3477 block vlaue with 1/3 Redoubt (4109 with 3/3), you'll see no difference in threat between 0/3 and 1/3 Redoubt
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:52 am

Theck, your post only seems to talk about threat.
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:59 am

Isetnefret wrote:Theck, your post only seems to talk about threat.

Except for the first sentence where I mention that Redoubt is a few percent of mitigation per point?

Also, based on the way he worded his question, I assume that threat is all he's asking about:
DisRuptive1 wrote:What with the diminishing returns with block value and the terrible mitigation it provides against bosses, would it be a bad thing to lose Redoubt to take other talents?

"Diminishing returns" indicates he's talking about threat, since the DR only affects ShoR damage, and "terrible mitigation" reinforces that he's unconcerned with the mitigation component.
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Re: Losing Redoubt

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:06 am

My entire point was that it still provides mitigation (which you also pointed out, I was using sarcasm).

Unfortunately, it's a point that my achievements does not qualify me to make.
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