How does Vindication work?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby jere » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:16 am

æ wrote:Could someone explain why this is something tanks should pick up? It really seems like its not worth it. 41 DPS mitigation per melee mob isnt it just that flat out at it best?


Because it is more than that. Mobs aren't affected by AP exactly the same way we are. It has a bigger impact on NPC mobs than on players.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:18 am

æ wrote:Could someone explain why this is something tanks should pick up? It really seems like its not worth it. 41 DPS mitigation per melee mob isnt it just that flat out at it best?

Because that's not how attack power works for bosses. From that link (which was posted upthread by Isetnefret):

wowwiki wrote:Mobs have different attack power formulas than players. Damage done per second of mobs is given by:

(DPS_from_AttackPower + Base_DPS) * Multiplier.

For most mobs, attack power is about 30% of total damage; bosses have higher multiplier than trash mobs. That means -attack power debuffs have significant effect on raid mobs. Some tests suggest Improved Demoralizing Shout could reduce the damage taken from a level 60 mob by 25%. Thus Curse of Recklessness will increase the damage done of affected mob drastically.


Of course that's from lvl 60, but this mechanic hasn't changed since then.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby Nadir » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:19 am

The figure that I've always seen quoted is that fully talented Demoralizing Shout lowers a lvl83 mob's DPS by 15%.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby Steve » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:33 am

It seems to vary based on mechanics. I remember Broodlord Lashlayer had a mortal strike attack that was significantly impacted by alterations in his Attack Power -- far more than merely 15%.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:02 pm

It varies from boss to boss. If we re-write the wowwiki formula this way (and let's just discuss the boss's melee swing damage rather than DPS):

(A * boss_attack_power + B) * multiplier

A is the damage done due to his attack power.
B is the "base damage" done even if he had 0 attack power.
Vindication (or Demo or w/e) reduces boss_attack_power to 0, nullifying the first term.

A and B can be different for each boss, which is why it might shave off 15% from one boss's white swing and 30% from another.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby æ » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:13 pm

theckhd wrote:
æ wrote:Could someone explain why this is something tanks should pick up? It really seems like its not worth it. 41 DPS mitigation per melee mob isnt it just that flat out at it best?

Because that's not how attack power works for bosses. From that link (which was posted upthread by Isetnefret):

wowwiki wrote:Mobs have different attack power formulas than players. Damage done per second of mobs is given by:

(DPS_from_AttackPower + Base_DPS) * Multiplier.

For most mobs, attack power is about 30% of total damage; bosses have higher multiplier than trash mobs. That means -attack power debuffs have significant effect on raid mobs. Some tests suggest Improved Demoralizing Shout could reduce the damage taken from a level 60 mob by 25%. Thus Curse of Recklessness will increase the damage done of affected mob drastically.


Of course that's from lvl 60, but this mechanic hasn't changed since then.



Thanks for reiterating that. I did click that link but it didnt compute, Ill take a closer look now that im awake. :D

So basically, does anyone know what the multipliers for heroic/raid bossess might be?
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:52 pm

It's not so much the individual boss modifiers, as I understand it, but I'm given to understand that each individual boss attack is affected by the boss's AP differently.


So, as Theck pointed out, IF you use the
Code: Select all
(A * boss_attack_power + B) * multiplier


formula, then B is a unique number for each different attack, and A is a coefficient unique to each attack, and boss_attack_power is a constant for that particular boss.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:54 pm

As evidence of this, I would present that all level 83(skull) bosses have different values for their white, normal melee swings.

Bosses that use similar special attacks do differing damage with them.


This is all conjecture on my part.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby Spamdrew » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:57 pm

There was an interesting test a while back on Tankspot in which a hunter was able to see the damage range of Maxenna (because she is a beast) with various amounts of points in improved demoralising shout (Link).
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby Noradin » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:47 am

Isetnefret wrote:It's not so much the individual boss modifiers, as I understand it, but I'm given to understand that each individual boss attack is affected by the boss's AP differently.


So, as Theck pointed out, IF you use the
Code: Select all
(A * boss_attack_power + B) * multiplier


formula, then B is a unique number for each different attack, and A is a coefficient unique to each attack, and boss_attack_power is a constant for that particular boss.


boss_attack_power is said to be constant for all bosses, not only for every single boss.

Also:

Q. Demoralizing Shout tends to have a very minimal impact in most situations, are there plans to improve this ability?

A. I think by “most situations” you must mean “PvP.” Demo Shout has a massive benefit against raid bosses. It’s probably 20% less damage from a typical boss and literally like 50% against say Thorim’s Unbalancing Strike. However, removing 400 attack power from a Feral druid with 9000 attack power, or a Shadow priest who doesn’t care about attack power at all is of much more limited use. Monsters and players use pretty different combat formulae (which is one of the weird things about the old design of say Vindication). We would like Demo Shout to be more useful in PvP, at least against characters who rely on attack power.


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 4172&sid=1 (second post).

Vindication has the same AP reduction as demo shout.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:55 am

Noradin wrote:
boss_attack_power is said to be constant for all bosses, not only for every single boss.




Given this, each boss must have a different coefficient for how attack power affects their attacks, as not all boss white damage is the same.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:01 am

Isetnefret wrote:Given this, each boss must have a different coefficient for how attack power affects their attacks, as not all boss white damage is the same.

I think I said that.
Theck wrote:A and B can be different for each boss, which is why it might shave off 15% from one boss's white swing and 30% from another.


boss_attack_power is indeed identical for every boss. If I'm remembering correctly, it's exactly the amount that Vindication/Imp. Demo Shout/etc. remove.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby Candiru » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:03 am

I think its slightly less than the amount a fully talented Demo shout removes, as in the Manexia tests the last talent point removed less dps than the other 4 points (which all removed the same.)

If, however, it was more than the amount of AP you could remove with demo shout it would be identical to the base DPS just being higher, and the AP being = to the removable AP since there is no way to remove more AP than this.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby Corpsicle » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:14 am

A warrior I run with has fully talented demo shout. My vindication removed 574 ap, his demo shout removed 575.
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Re: How does Vindication work?

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:19 am

Candiru wrote:I think its slightly less than the amount a fully talented Demo shout removes, as in the Manexia tests the last talent point removed less dps than the other 4 points (which all removed the same.)

At level 80, 2/2 Vindication removes 574 attack power.

According to the Maexxna test (at least if this tankspot thread is right):
Code: Select all
Demo shout talent points | AP reduction | Damage range | Change from previous
0/5 | 410.0 | 17169-24450
1/5 | 442.8 | 16978-24259 | -191
2/5 | 475.6 | 16787-24068 | -191
3/5 | 508.4 | 16596-23877 | -191
4/5 | 541.2 | 16405-23686 | -191
5/5 | 574.0 | 16220-23501 | -185

This indicates that Maexxna (and presumably other level 80 bosses) has 573 attack power, which a warrior would need a full 5/5 Improved Demo Shout to negate. It also suggests that the Warlock talent Frailty should be taken anytime Curse of Recklessness is being used.

So boss_attack_power is (573 - AP_debuff), and AP_debuff should max out at 573 for both 2/2 Vindication and 5/5 Imp Demo Shout (because boss_attack_power can't go negative, so anything over 573 doesn't matter).
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