Expertise: zero to hero

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Expertise: zero to hero

Postby Squishums » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:31 pm

Before this patch i put almost zero value in expertise. 1 Parry per attack occasionally wasnt the end of the world.

Now however, paladins are parryable more often than any other tank, and they always come in convenient doubles (or quadruples!) perfect for getting parry gibbed. And as well of course, expertise boosts threat a bit more.

Im not sure I would ever actively gem expertise even now, but gear with it on will now catch my eye, whereas since early in TBC when I started playing a paladin it always just made me think of wasted stats. My token red gem for my meta is expertise now, Ive switched to the glyph of SOV, and as a human I will try to use a sword/mace.

What are your thoughts? Am I overreacting?



This is a very odd patch in that so many stats' values have been shaken up. Block value (and rating by association) dodge, parry, agility, expertise, and weapon procs like mongoose are all now much better or worse than they used to be. The only time I can remember this happening before was 3.0. And in that fewer stats were involved, and the gear changed with the stats, so it wasnt as abrupt.
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Re: Expertise: zero to hero

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:43 pm

Unless i'm mistaken, the deflect on Hotr doesnt generate Parry haste, and the new SOV proc can't be dodge/parried.

Looking for confirms on this.
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Re: Expertise: zero to hero

Postby Funtodin » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:53 pm

Worldie wrote:Unless i'm mistaken, the deflect on Hotr doesnt generate Parry haste, and the new SOV proc can't be dodge/parried.

Looking for confirms on this.


Even assuming no parry haste, when your white swing is parried or dodged you don't proc it at all, reducing threat by a decent amount given the buff to SoV and nerf to ShoR.
With that said, I don't think parry haste is a concern, but the wasted threat. When it comes to expertise, there's always the glyph of seal of vengeance for the easiest 10 expertise you'll ever get. We won't be needing glyph of salvation a whole lot now with the new AD and the dpsers scaling even more with the new tier. The only no-brainer as a glyph is probably Divine Plea, maybe now the Seal of Vengeance one.
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Re: Expertise: zero to hero

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:24 pm

Heh, just replied to a thread on EJ about this and came over here looking for confirmation. The question raised in the EJ prot thread was whether the DoT application from SoV was dodge/parryable. In the EJ ret thread, the behaviour of SoV is described as follows:

Arikah wrote:When an auto-attack lands (does not dodge/parry/miss) that can proc a seal the of the following things happen independently of each other (see 2 roll system).

1) A "hidden strike" which uses melee combat mechanics occurs. If it lands it refreshes/stacks SoV DoT. Only white swings can trigger a refresh or stack.
2) A weapon damage based proc will occur if you used a special (CS/DS/judge) or if you have a 5 stack (from auto attacks). This attack can not be avoided.

Remember #2 happens regardless of #1 landing, it just requires the initial attack (autos, cs, etc) to land.

DoT functions and mechanics:
DoT application is melee hit/exp based. (Cannot be resisted like a spell, but can be dodged or parried)
DoT will still be applied even if your white swing is fully absorbed (in a PvP situation).
DoT is only applied via auto-attacks (whites).
DoT ticks always hit.
DoT ticks are reduced by partial resist on skull mobs, but not by players (it is holy damage).
DoT gains from CoE (and equivalents).

Seal Proc functions and mechanics:
Proc (after 5 stack/triggered from specials) can NOT be dodged or parried, it occurs as long as your initial white/strike lands.
Proc suffers from partial resists (it's holy damage).
Proc gains from CoE (and equivalents).
Proc can crit. (like SoB did)


Source.

Assuming that is all accurate, each time you swing with SoV sealed there are two chances to get parried, one on the white swing, and if that connects, then one on the SoV DoT application.

As far as threat, If your white swing connects, then even if your SoV DoT application misses/is dodged/parried, you won't lose any threat as long as you've already got a 5 stack.

If your white swing misses, then of course you miss the SoV 33% damage proc as well.

Looking for confirmation that the above described behaviour is accurate though.
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Re: Expertise: zero to hero

Postby Khayne » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:16 am

Funtodin wrote:Even assuming no parry haste, when your white swing is parried or dodged you don't proc it at all, reducing threat by a decent amount given the buff to SoV and nerf to ShoR.


How many people actualy hit the ShoR damage cap in their normal tanking gear?
And if they do, why the hell do they got that much BV on their gear for?

I have a hard time believing my threat would be going any direction but up atm.
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Re: Expertise: zero to hero

Postby Gamingdevil » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:51 am

Khayne wrote:
Funtodin wrote:Even assuming no parry haste, when your white swing is parried or dodged you don't proc it at all, reducing threat by a decent amount given the buff to SoV and nerf to ShoR.


How many people actualy hit the ShoR damage cap in their normal tanking gear?
And if they do, why the hell do they got that much BV on their gear for?

I have a hard time believing my threat would be going any direction but up atm.


It should, but ShoR was still nerfed, even without the DR. So regardless, threat from ShoR will be going down.
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Re: Expertise: zero to hero

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:22 am

Rhiannon wrote:Looking for confirmation that the above described behaviour is accurate though.

Testing done by Jere and others during the PTR agrees with that description. Most of the posts can be found in my matlab thread, scattered between pages 42 and 50ish.
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Re: Expertise: zero to hero

Postby Funtodin » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:13 am

Khayne wrote:
Funtodin wrote:Even assuming no parry haste, when your white swing is parried or dodged you don't proc it at all, reducing threat by a decent amount given the buff to SoV and nerf to ShoR.


How many people actualy hit the ShoR damage cap in their normal tanking gear?
And if they do, why the hell do they got that much BV on their gear for?

I have a hard time believing my threat would be going any direction but up atm.


Still it was nerfed from 130% down to 100% of block value, before diminishing returns.
I'm not saying that our sustained threat as a result will be lower, it's most likely higher. But it will be less bursty and a more dependant on gear and itemization. Now we want both hit and expertise ratings, instead of just +hit like in 3.1.
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Re: Expertise: zero to hero

Postby PsiVen » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:50 pm

Expertise is still highly undesirable in general on gear because we get 16 for free and need very little to reach the parry cap. As a dwarf with a mace that has expertise on it (26 expertise right there), I treat it much like block rating...
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Re: Expertise: zero to hero

Postby Nadir » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:01 pm

There really aren't many ilvl 258/272 hit options. The choice is mostly between expertise or nothing. Our tier legs are literally the only ilvl 258 piece with hit rating*, and those are horribly itemized in terms of survivability (defense, hit, bv are the three stats). There are ilvl 245 hit wrists, feet, and shoulders, but you'd be downgrading in terms of survivability from the ilvl 258 options.

*Oops, Hellscreamer Slicer (ilvl 258 DPS 1H) has hit rating.
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Re: Expertise: zero to hero

Postby Ragingsoul » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:27 pm

Nadir wrote:There really aren't many ilvl 258/272 hit options. The choice is mostly between expertise or nothing. Our tier legs are literally the only ilvl 258 piece with hit rating*, and those are horribly itemized in terms of survivability (defense, hit, bv are the three stats). There are ilvl 245 hit wrists, feet, and shoulders, but you'd be downgrading in terms of survivability from the ilvl 258 options.

*Oops, Hellscreamer Slicer (ilvl 258 DPS 1H) has hit rating.

yeah, and best is Stormpike Cleaver with 1 yellow socket for 20 defense rating with 1.34% hit. I'm seriously considering it if they don't normalize the dps of seal. loosing a little bit of hp for the MASSIVE TPS gain is well worth it.
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Re: Expertise: zero to hero

Postby Wardari » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:34 am

I've gotta say that since the patch i've noticed a massive increase in TPS from SoV and a huge drop from ShoR - mainly due to the 30% nerf to counterbalance all that extra block value we're not using :/ (however happy to see the tier 9 having stats like defense, large chunk of dodge and then a nice chunk of block value too, shame about the lack of hit)

However if the trend of stacking avoidance and completely forsaking SBV continues i'll certainly be looking into increasing my expertise a bit more to lower my attack parry chance (i'm currently at 28 expertise to eliminate dodges), being the 5 stack procs are dependant on the blows landing. I won't be going and socketting expertise gems tho etc, i'll just looking a little longer at items that have expertise rating on it.

I guess we'll have to see how it all pans out over the coming weeks.
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