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Devo and AD on effective health [math]

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Devo and AD on effective health [math]

Postby qwyn » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:52 pm

yes this is another pally v. warr comparison :oops:

so i was just curious to see how paladins compared to warriors in effective health, as pioneered by the math of http://www.tankspot.com/index.php?pageid=EffectiveHealth
and the results were kinda interesting. i dont know what to do with them, but they were interesting none the less...

the warrior is the MT of my guild and we are geared almost identically with tier 4/kara/gruul gear.

qwyn: 12847 hp, 17488 ar(with devo) = 2.46 effective health multiplier
tauren warr: 15987 hp, 16466 ar = 2.38 effective health multiplier

so that comes out to...
me: 31632 effective health
him: 36571 effective health

crap i just got my ass beat by 5k EH - even with a buff! - right? well its gets hazy when you add in ardent defender into the mix. as most pallys know, AD gives up to a 15% boost in health, depending on where the damage spike lands in from 0-35% of your health. so i did the same math, adding 5, 10, and 15% to simulate the varying effectiveness of AD:

5% = 33214
10% = 34795
15% = 36377 (194 short of my warr friend)

so as you can see, the stam gap is almost exactly bridged, as long as i (and not him) have devo aura on and i happen to be hit to 34.9% of my health. this might be an exception to the rule since im pitting my numbers against a tauren, but those are what i have to work with...

this might be more evidence that explains blizz's "separate but equal" statements when comparing tanks. if pallys are so finely tuned compared to warriors that the ONLY way to equal effective health is to get FULL use of AD, then the only way we can consistently have equal health is versus aoe pacts and fast hitters, since the small chunks of life they take off will more likely land in the 30-35% range (as opposed to massive hitters, whose spike damage is unpredictable and can leapfrog AD entirely, which when that happens we are thousands of EH behind warriors)

to put it another way, the only way for our EH to fully match warriors, we HAVE to have devo and the full benefit of AD. the only way to guarantee full use of AD is mob packs and light&fast hitters. our reliance on AD is another factor that pushes us away from the MT role and forces us towards aoe/gimmick tanking.
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Postby Joanadark » Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:24 pm

a couple things:

1) the warrior will have Devo reagrdless, making devo irrelevant.

2) Ardent Defender ONLY contributes to EH at its maximum extent if the total damage is being delivered in thousands of instantaneous hits for 1 damage. If the damage is coming from one single hit, then Ardent Defender does not contribute at all. Effectiveness scales in between these two extremes.
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Postby khash » Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:25 pm

mike, i thought you were an english major, leave those scary numbers alone
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:38 pm

This, I think, is why they've promised us more HP and I expect a possible nerf to Ardent Defender. It only comes into its own when we have an AoE situation, and even then only when we have such an extreme number of mobs dealing low damage that we're the only ones able to hold aggro on them all anyway.

More HP with less reliance on AD will relieve some complaints of big HP gaps. But the tauren racial is still stupidly OP and not likely to get changed :roll:
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Postby qwyn » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:39 am

to kash: <3<3 - yea i know, its kreepy. you should check out the paladin threat sticky for some real vigilante math 0.o


for joan: devo - the warr will not have devo reguardless, only if hes in your same group. he cannot generate it on his own, therefore it is not a given (this is for general effectiveness, so we cant assume raids).

however, i agree with you that a warr CAN - and easily will - get devo to push them ahead of us, but thats why i said:
crap i just got my ass beat by 5k EH - even with a buff!
so i think we all acknowledge the fact that relying on a buff to be equal is kinda dumb.

2) Ardent Defender ONLY contributes to EH at its maximum extent if the total damage is being delivered in thousands of instantaneous hits for 1 damage.

as for AD, unless i dont understand correctly, AD can also fully kick in if you were a 10k pally that got hit once for 6501 bringing you to 3499. what you are talking about is what i was trying to get across, was that the only way to GUARANTEE full use of AD is "damage being delivered in thousands of instantaneous hits for 1 damage" but it CAN happen with any amount of damage so long as it lands you at some point just below 35%. now the odds of that are infinitesimally small when youre getting hit for 4k-8k depending on the boss, granted, and the chances of getting fuller use of AD increase with decreasing size/increasing frequency of hits.
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Postby Lore » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:13 am

qwyn wrote:as for AD, unless i dont understand correctly, AD can also fully kick in if you were a 10k pally that got hit once for 6501 bringing you to 3499. what you are talking about is what i was trying to get across, was that the only way to GUARANTEE full use of AD is "damage being delivered in thousands of instantaneous hits for 1 damage" but it CAN happen with any amount of damage so long as it lands you at some point just below 35%. now the odds of that are infinitesimally small when youre getting hit for 4k-8k depending on the boss, granted, and the chances of getting fuller use of AD increase with decreasing size/increasing frequency of hits.


Right, that single hit is getting the full effect of AD, but as far as your effective health goes it's not quite a 30% bonus to the last 35% of your HP, which is what I think he was trying to say.
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Postby Mortehl » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:25 am

PsiVen wrote:But the tauren racial is still stupidly OP and not likely to get changed :roll:


Meh. I have no problem with it since I don't need to compete with Tauren for tanking. I think its an awesome racial personally and if I ever went Horde, I'd probably go hamburger as a warrior. I mean its not like there are any real paladin tanks Horde side anyway who need to compete with it. :wink:
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Postby onacouch » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:26 am

In order to get maximum efficiency out of AD you would have to take a hit that would take you to 3499 and then take hit(s) that would bring you to 1HP. This is so easily ignored.

I would just rather they make it like redoubt or reckoning, I wouldn't mind taking 30% less damage for 2/4/6/8/10% of the time.
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Postby Blutreich » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:29 am

all they really need to do is tweak it slightly to make it usefull. If it is based on a proc all it will do is make for more spike damage and more damage lows. what we really want is consistency, i would gladly up my damage intake by 10% if it would be perfectly smooth, but then healers would be bored.

make it:
when you take damage that would leave you at less then 35% of your hp it is reduced by 30%.

kind of merging ardent defender and rogues cheat death. They have the coding already.
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Postby qwyn » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:42 am

i didnt mean for this to turn into a "how to fix ardent defender" post but what the hell...

im a fan (and it has been suggested by others) if them changing it to work in a similar way to how the new viper-sting will work for hunters.
and example would be:

100%-80% no damage reduciton
80-60% = 5% damage reduciton
60-40% = 10% damage reduciton
40-20% = 15% damage reduciton
20-0% = 20% damage reduciton

or some junk like that. it just seems like when youre progressing to a new instance AD is leapfrogged, and when youre farming an old instance you never get anywhere near 35%.

idk - that could be a pessimistic summery but either way i want a less chancy AD
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Postby qwyn » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:56 am

Meh. I have no problem with it since I don't need to compete with Tauren for tanking.


yea but i was thinking of those who do and weep...

take an UD warr and raid buff him to 20k
take a tauren warr in the EXACT same gear and put him in a raid next to that first warr and watch the UD try to say "please take me, i have WotF! im clearly just as good as that 22k warr" and as the raid leader chuckles over vent, mouse inching closer to -uninvite-

im just not a fan of the -create character- button turn into an IWIN button.

how would you feel if NE warrs got something like a 10% dodge to their racials, and how many non-NE tanking warriors would you see running around? welcome to horde side. (yea i know thats OP compared to 10% stam - save your flames for elsewhere)
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Postby khash » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:30 am

Mortehl wrote: I mean its not like there are any real paladin tanks Horde side anyway who need to compete with it. :wink:



ouch, that hurts mort
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Postby Joanadark » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:51 am

for joan: devo - the warr will not have devo reguardless, only if hes in your same group. he cannot generate it on his own, therefore it is not a given (this is for general effectiveness, so we cant assume raids).


You can't min/max EH levels and NOT min/max buffs at the same time.

ANY serious min/max raid will have at least one paladin to give Kings. If one paladin is present, the warrior will have Devo.
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Postby Whitewolf » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:53 pm

You can't min/max EH levels and NOT min/max buffs at the same time.

ANY serious min/max raid will have at least one paladin to give Kings. If one paladin is present, the warrior will have Devo.


Most of my Holy paladins use Concentration aura.
And, most groups don't have Protection paladins.

I agree that USUALLY they'd have it, but it isn't a "For sure, i'll always have devotion aura".
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Postby qwyn » Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:27 pm

oh my goodness! joan, im like, 97% sure that we agree on everything written thus far, so i dont know how we are arguing about this...

my only concern with your replies is their insistence on absolutes:

the warrior will have Devo reagrdless


Ardent Defender ONLY contributes to EH at its maximum...


If one paladin is present, the warrior will have Devo.


You can't min/max EH levels and NOT min/max buffs at the same time.

(bolds added for emphasis, capitalization unchanged)

1) no warrior has had devo on him at all times in all situations throughout his career in wow. pallys can literally have it whenever they want it (unless they are silenced).

2) covered in other posts.

3)again, not always. what you mean is "the warrior can have devo." call my guild gimp or stupid or w/e, but when im not there they run with 2-3 holy pallys and the tank group never gets one of them, usually they put them in the two healer groups so they can all have conc aura/mana tide/Spriests/etc. might not be the ideal, but my guild is one example of a situation where warrs exist in raids with pallys and dont get devo.

4)yea, i can.
and thats just what i did in the OP, whilst clearly pointing it out what i was doing. i understand and share your concern with perils of mixing and matching buffs when comparing, but i thought i was pretty upfront about explaining my logic.

please dont approach my (and this goes for posts and posters everywhere, not just joan) posts as though they are "wrong" when there isnt actually something incorrect in it. if i am mistaken, by all means please please please call me on it. but if there is something you would like to point out all i ask is try to make it constructive rather than destructive. your first post had examples of both in it:
-good: i say that if AD perfectly maxes out, pallys get EH compairable with a warrior - you add the specifics on what will perfectly max out AD
-hurt my feelings: i say that under these specific conditions, a pally will more or less equal the EH of a warr - you call those specific conditions irrelevant.

so what i meant about us agreeing on everything is we are both right, but made different assumptions. i assumed within my math that the paladin had devo up and you assumed that warriors, for all practical purposes, have easy access to devo as well. youll get no argument from me there ^_^

for future posts (to get us back on track):
so as you can see, the stam gap is almost exactly bridged, as long as i (and not him) have devo aura on and i happen to be hit to 34.9% of my health.

this was the main point of the OP. my conclusion was that the only way for a pally to regularly match the EH of a warr is with AoE packs. im interested to know what you all think
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