Remove Advertisements

ShoR testing on the PTR

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:39 am

Minarva wrote:Then dont wear block value gear like everyone else isn't. I sit at around 1.2k unbuffed BV, and I'm nearly in total BiS hardmode gear from 25 man, the only gear that has BV on for me are my tier gloves.
This is not a nerf for me YET because I simply don't hit that high, however it is an extremly retarded change. This makes it along with shield slam the only damaging ability to have dimishing returns - and yet we are not damage classes (it makes me wonder why dimishing returns was not added to DKs Frost strike when it was destroying the arena, or any other PvP destroying ability). It seems counter intuitive to buff block value to the point it was -ok- to have on your gear, and then nerf it so that in any real amounts it is only a mitigation stat - and an extremly poor one at that.
Another point to consider is how this will change in future content. I would imagine even if you TRIED to not get BV in T9 you would end up with a crapton of it, and heaven forbid level 90. There needs to be some sort of scaling based on itemlevel or something...don't know but it does just make the whole stat suck even more than it does now (to be honest).

Personally I hope this is just a PTR thing, because otherwise it shows how little foresight Blizzard seem to have with their own changes, and frankly seems very unproffesional (particularly if you track the changes to shield slam). Band aids to fix a band aid...no thanks.


Then you are not optimizing threat....BiS gear is dependant on what you are trying to obtain...there is BiS mitigation, BiS EH, and BiS threat...BiS threat has to increase BV or you are not exactly the best that you can be.

With the change in EH provided by block gear on the PTR, it may well change the paradigm on how we gear.
Garath.Gorefiend
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:07 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby SellassieTanks » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:09 am

Effects our EH on physical hits only
Image
SellassieTanks
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:53 am

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby kanst » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:31 am

To me this just seems like a dumb fix to something some people complain about. I dont really see prot pallies in arena as that huge of a deal, its not like they are overrunning brackets. I think they could have fixed this without screwing out threat scaling.
Image
kanst
 
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 9:02 am

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby Venoseth » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:34 pm

kanst wrote:To me this just seems like a dumb fix to something some people complain about. I dont really see prot pallies in arena as that huge of a deal, its not like they are overrunning brackets. I think they could have fixed this without screwing out threat scaling.


I agree that this reduces our damage. If they were going to do this, why didn't they temp-fix Redoubt to provide 100/200/300% bonus BV from gear since we'll all be "threat/damage capped" on it anyway, and at least BV would be a great mitigation tool? XD

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Effectively, this has nerfed paladin threat fairly hard.


Paladin threat is OP ATM. I'm not saying this was the ideal way to fix it, but you're making it out like we won't be able to tank or something. As other people have said, threat's fine in low BV gear, and most hard-mode (what we could complain about it affecting) will be largely unaffected, unless we're all mistaken.

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Redoubt now has much less value as a THREAT talent as its benefit drops as we get more block gear switching from a combined threat/mitigation talent to strictly a mitigation talent


I fixed it for TL;DR safety. Redoubt will still be an utterly unskipable talent. ^^
"Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work."

"Education is an ornament in prosperity and refuge in adversity."
Image
Venoseth
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:05 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:14 am

Venoseth wrote:
kanst wrote:To me this just seems like a dumb fix to something some people complain about. I dont really see prot pallies in arena as that huge of a deal, its not like they are overrunning brackets. I think they could have fixed this without screwing out threat scaling.


I agree that this reduces our damage. If they were going to do this, why didn't they temp-fix Redoubt to provide 100/200/300% bonus BV from gear since we'll all be "threat/damage capped" on it anyway, and at least BV would be a great mitigation tool? XD

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Effectively, this has nerfed paladin threat fairly hard.


Paladin threat is OP ATM. I'm not saying this was the ideal way to fix it, but you're making it out like we won't be able to tank or something. As other people have said, threat's fine in low BV gear, and most hard-mode (what we could complain about it affecting) will be largely unaffected, unless we're all mistaken.

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Redoubt now has much less value as a THREAT talent as its benefit drops as we get more block gear switching from a combined threat/mitigation talent to strictly a mitigation talent


I fixed it for TL;DR safety. Redoubt will still be an utterly unskipable talent. ^^


On live, what gets us raid tanking spots is threat. Druids and DKs mitigate better, and are more optimal for hard mode fights. Warriors have more tools to play with.

If you take away a strength without replacing it with another strength, the class can easily be relegated to obscurity.

Not sure why you feel that Redoubt is still utterly unskippable. Extra mitigation provided by redoubt itself has always been relatively weak (zero in boss fights and only a couple of % in multi-mob fights).

With redoubt scaling your threat, by increasing BV, it was solid. If gear escalation allows us to reach the BV cap without the 30% magnifier, then redoubt becomes strictly a weak mitigation tool against mobs that we don't require the extra mitigation for.
Garath.Gorefiend
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:07 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby majiben » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:12 am

What? 0 mitigation from redoubt on boss fights? I suggest you read it again.
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:40 am

Majiben wrote:What? 0 mitigation from redoubt on boss fights? I suggest you read it again.


When I said that, I meant the Redoubt proc....I am assuming you are using HS and are geared even close to appropriately, at 102.4, so ever hit that gets thru is blocked...

Does the talent provide some additional mitigation? Sure...30% increase to BV...in other words, a pretty marginal decrease to incoming damage.

For example, if you are at block value cap (from an ShoR perspective) without Redoubt, then Redoubt would provide you with about 980 flat mitigation per hit.

Is that flat non-scaling mitigation worth 3 talent points when that is all it is giving you?
Garath.Gorefiend
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:07 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby majiben » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:02 am

Yes when it's still worth using your numbers against a 40k hit 2.45% reduction in damage taken for 3 points. And you weren't talking about the proc when you said redoubt now provided no threat which the proc never did, or at least you were using different definitions unclearly and for no apparent reason.
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby Spectrum » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:09 am

Redoubt still has value on a lot of fights. Remember that not every Hard Mode is like XT. Freya and Mimiron for example will still have not-so-hard melee hits because the difficulty comes from all the extra effects being thrown around. I've also noticed that a lot of the Colosseum fights have multiple mobs which would imply more hits for less.

I'm sort of sad about this change. I liked 10k ShoR crits in Naxx10 gear. I was salivating over the idea of finally finishing my block set and having the new block change to get awesome crits. Of course, they dashed that.

I don't think our threat will suffer too significantly because most are already below that cap. I think they want us to go the way of strength for threat anyway.
Spectrum
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1488
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:40 pm
Location: Silvermoon, Alliance

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:17 am

Maji, not my fault that redoubt has two parts to it and you get confused...

As for the other replies...you all need to get onto the PTR and do some actual testing...the issue is there...and non scaling of any threat talent or ability is an issue I would hate to see go live.
Garath.Gorefiend
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:07 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby majiben » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:33 am

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Not sure why you feel that Redoubt is still utterly unskippable. Extra mitigation provided by redoubt itself has always been relatively weak (zero in boss fights and only a couple of % in multi-mob fights).

With redoubt scaling your threat, by increasing BV, it was solid. If gear escalation allows us to reach the BV cap without the 30% magnifier, then redoubt becomes strictly a weak mitigation tool against mobs that we don't require the extra mitigation for.

This is exactly what you said. First you reference the talent and question how it can be seen as unskippable. In the next sentence without using the word redoubt you say that it (presumably referring to the redoubt already mentioned and no the unmentioned one) is worth no mitigation on bosses. Then in the next paragraph/sentence you reference the talent not the effect redoubt again.
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby Kelaan » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:31 pm

Considering that the BV diminishing returns kick in at a level that I am unlikely to have on my boss tanking gear in the medium future, and still allow my currently-~2k BV set to hit harder than it currently does (well ... maybe not, with the multiplier change?), or at least similarly, I'm not terribly put out.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4036
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby Lore » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:42 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:On live, what gets us raid tanking spots is threat. Druids and DKs mitigate better, and are more optimal for hard mode fights. Warriors have more tools to play with.


What you're forgetting in this statement is that DK survivability (especially as Blood) and cooldowns have been given some pretty severe nerfs, Druid avoidance has been lowered relative to the other classes, and Warriors are receiving the exact same scaling nerf on Shield Slam that we're receiving on Shield of Righteousness. On top of that, we're gaining a fairly big EH increase through the new Ardent Defender (both as a function of the non-leapfroggable DR effect and the 30% self-heal).

This is why you can never look at single changes in a vacuum.

Also, if the only thing scoring you a raid invite is your threat output, you need to take a real serious look at how much you're bringing to the table as a raider.
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby Candiru » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:38 am

If we have a hard cap on block value now, can we have our 130% damage back?
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Postby SellassieTanks » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:24 am

Lore wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:On live, what gets us raid tanking spots is threat. Druids and DKs mitigate better, and are more optimal for hard mode fights. Warriors have more tools to play with.


What you're forgetting in this statement is that DK survivability (especially as Blood) and cooldowns have been given some pretty severe nerfs, Druid avoidance has been lowered relative to the other classes, and Warriors are receiving the exact same scaling nerf on Shield Slam that we're receiving on Shield of Righteousness. On top of that, we're gaining a fairly big EH increase through the new Ardent Defender (both as a function of the non-leapfroggable DR effect and the 30% self-heal).

This is why you can never look at single changes in a vacuum.

Also, if the only thing scoring you a raid invite is your threat output, you need to take a real serious look at how much you're bringing to the table as a raider.



Word...

And btw, Druids HAVE to mitigate more, they get kicked alot...NPC's in WoW basically tell Peta to go shove a mongoose where the sun don't shine.
Image
SellassieTanks
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:53 am

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSNbot Media and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: MSNbot Media and 1 guest