ShoR testing on the PTR
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ShoR testing on the PTR
I wanted to keep this in the Adv. Training forums.
Here is some data I gathered on ShoR on the PTR:
Note the oddity at 3155. I double checked both it and 3282, and those results were repeatable.
I then extracted out the block value past 2400 and also back calculated the "effective" block value of the damage done:
Again, the line associated with 3155 has an oddity.
I tried using the interpolation algorithm and came up with three equations:
Ignoring last two lines: y = 0.0006x^2 + 0.9510x  0.2712 ===> R^2 = 1
Ignoring only last line: y = 0.0006x^2 + 0.9507x  0.2511 ===> R^2 = 1
Using all lines: y = 0.0006x^2 + 0.9360x + 0.6595 ===> R^2 = 0.9999999
y ==> effective block value
x ==> actual block value
So there are some interesting oddities.
As far as spec, I went up into protection for redoubt since I didn't have enough block value gear to get above 2400 without it, but I avoided any damage increasing talents like 1HWS or Crusade
NOTE: Some of the recorded damage values could be incomplete. I hit them for a while each time, but it could be just a really low probability of hitting the other min/max value. So there is some error there.
EDIT: Here is the chart for the "ignore last data point" fitting. Series 1 is the min values, and series 2 is the max values. I fit the min values for those equations.
Here is some data I gathered on ShoR on the PTR:
 Code: Select all
Damage
BV MIN MAX

2400 2920 2920
2413 2932 2933
2439 2956 2956
2454 2969 2970
2475 2987 2988
2521 3026 3026
2627 3103 3104
2673 3133 3134
2825 3211 3211
2978 3260 3260
3022 3269 3269
3025 3269 3270
3041 3272 3272
3087 3278 3278
3100 3278 3279
3117 3280 3280
3130 3280 3280
3155 3281 3281
3282 3280 3280
Note the oddity at 3155. I double checked both it and 3282, and those results were repeatable.
I then extracted out the block value past 2400 and also back calculated the "effective" block value of the damage done:
 Code: Select all
Eff Block Value
Extra BV MIN MAX

0 0 0
13 12 13
39 36 36
54 49 50
75 67 68
121 106 106
227 183 184
273 213 214
425 291 291
578 340 340
622 349 349
625 349 350
641 352 352
687 358 358
700 358 359
717 360 360
730 360 360
755 361 361
882 360 360
Again, the line associated with 3155 has an oddity.
I tried using the interpolation algorithm and came up with three equations:
Ignoring last two lines: y = 0.0006x^2 + 0.9510x  0.2712 ===> R^2 = 1
Ignoring only last line: y = 0.0006x^2 + 0.9507x  0.2511 ===> R^2 = 1
Using all lines: y = 0.0006x^2 + 0.9360x + 0.6595 ===> R^2 = 0.9999999
y ==> effective block value
x ==> actual block value
So there are some interesting oddities.
As far as spec, I went up into protection for redoubt since I didn't have enough block value gear to get above 2400 without it, but I avoided any damage increasing talents like 1HWS or Crusade
NOTE: Some of the recorded damage values could be incomplete. I hit them for a while each time, but it could be just a really low probability of hitting the other min/max value. So there is some error there.
EDIT: Here is the chart for the "ignore last data point" fitting. Series 1 is the min values, and series 2 is the max values. I fit the min values for those equations.

jere  Posts: 2998
 Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm
Re: ShoR testing on the PTR
Similar findings were posted (albeit without the actual DATA) on the wow tanking forums.
With this, is there a way to see what the ACTUAL cap for BV is? Its unlikely any of us will hit it before we gain another 10 levels. I apologize if this somehow seems like childs play, but I'm likely to never understand how to do any of this math. I'm a security officer for a reason, the only thing I can do properly is look imposing
With this, is there a way to see what the ACTUAL cap for BV is? Its unlikely any of us will hit it before we gain another 10 levels. I apologize if this somehow seems like childs play, but I'm likely to never understand how to do any of this math. I'm a security officer for a reason, the only thing I can do properly is look imposing
 toothdecaykills
 Posts: 138
 Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:50 pm
Re: ShoR testing on the PTR
It's somewhere between 3100 and 3117. I didn't have enough granularity to find the spot where it hits 360 first.

jere  Posts: 2998
 Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm
Re: ShoR testing on the PTR
So you stopped seeing extra damage between 3100 and 3117, and in the patch notes they said the maximum contribution would be at 34.5*lvl, which is 34.5*80 = 2760... which I guess is referring to damage, not BV.
32802760 = 520. So that works out.
Thanks for doing these tests Jere.
32802760 = 520. So that works out.
Thanks for doing these tests Jere.

Sabindeus  Moderator
 Posts: 10496
 Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am
Re: ShoR testing on the PTR
Just to confirm your results, here's what I got with the curve fitting tool in MATLAB for your data set, excluding the last data point:
and excluding the last two data points:
These agree with your model very well. From this we can infer that the intercept (p3) is zero, which makes sense intuitively as well. If we force that to zero and just fit p1 & p2, we get:
I'm going to make a guess here that the exact values are p1 = 6.25e4 and p2 = 0.95. Fixing all three values as such, we get:
With these coefficients, the point when you reach the maximum would be x=p2./(2*p1), or 760, for a total of 3160 BV from gear. The amount of added damage you get at this point is 361.
So this suggests the appropriate formula is:
<edit> added ^2 that I missed
 Code: Select all
Linear model Poly2:
f(x) = p1*x^2 + p2*x + p3
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
p1 = 0.0006259 (0.00063, 0.0006217)
p2 = 0.9507 (0.9475, 0.9539)
p3 = 0.2511 (0.641, 0.1387)
Goodness of fit:
SSE: 1.906
Rsquare: 1
Adjusted Rsquare: 1
RMSE: 0.3564
and excluding the last two data points:
 Code: Select all
Linear model Poly2:
f(x) = p1*x^2 + p2*x + p3
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
p1 = 0.0006264 (0.000631, 0.0006218)
p2 = 0.951 (0.9476, 0.9545)
p3 = 0.2713 (0.674, 0.1314)
Goodness of fit:
SSE: 1.834
Rsquare: 1
Adjusted Rsquare: 1
RMSE: 0.362
These agree with your model very well. From this we can infer that the intercept (p3) is zero, which makes sense intuitively as well. If we force that to zero and just fit p1 & p2, we get:
 Code: Select all
Linear model Poly2:
f(x) = p1*x^2 + p2*x + p3
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
p1 = 0.0006245 (0.0006282, 0.0006208)
p2 = 0.9494 (0.947, 0.9518)
p3 = 0 (fixed at bound)
Goodness of fit:
SSE: 2.108
Rsquare: 1
Adjusted Rsquare: 1
RMSE: 0.3749
I'm going to make a guess here that the exact values are p1 = 6.25e4 and p2 = 0.95. Fixing all three values as such, we get:
 Code: Select all
Linear model Poly2:
f(x) = p1*x^2 + p2*x + p3
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
p1 = 0.000625 (fixed at bound)
p2 = 0.95 (fixed at bound)
p3 = 0 (fixed at bound)
Goodness of fit:
SSE: 2.527
Rsquare: 1
Adjusted Rsquare: 1
RMSE: 0.3855
With these coefficients, the point when you reach the maximum would be x=p2./(2*p1), or 760, for a total of 3160 BV from gear. The amount of added damage you get at this point is 361.
So this suggests the appropriate formula is:
 Code: Select all
BV<2400 520 + block_value
3160>BV>2400 520 + 2400 + 0.95*(block_value2400)  6.25e4*(block_value2400)^2
BV>3160 520 + 2400 + 361 = 3281
<edit> added ^2 that I missed
Last edited by theckhd on Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 8063
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: ShoR testing on the PTR
Dread wrote:Yay math!
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck

majiben  Moderator
 Posts: 6999
 Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
 Location: Retired
Re: ShoR testing on the PTR
jere wrote:You can always count on Theckhd for awesome stuff!
Don't shortchange yourself, you took all the data. I just spent 10 minutes playing with cftool.
Also, I have a vested interest in knowing the formula, because I need to update the TPS simulations. I plan on rerunning the stat sim and including block value as one of the independent variables, so we can see how it drops off compared to our other options.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 8063
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: ShoR testing on the PTR
Oh Theck, I think there should be a "^2" somewhere.
I.E.
Should be
I.E.
 Code: Select all
BV<2400 520 + block_value
3160>BV>2400 520 + 2400 + 0.95*(block_value2400)  6.25e4*(block_value2400)
BV>3160 520 + 2400 + 361 = 3281
Should be
 Code: Select all
BV<2400 520 + block_value
3160>BV>2400 520 + 2400 + 0.95*(block_value2400)  6.25e4*(block_value2400)^2
BV>3160 520 + 2400 + 361 = 3281

jere  Posts: 2998
 Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm
Re: ShoR testing on the PTR
jere wrote:Oh Theck, I think there should be a "^2" somewhere.
Yup, there should be. Thanks.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 8063
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: ShoR testing on the PTR
A couple of things.
First off, the BV Cap includes BV from both items and Str.
It also included BV from procs (librams and 4pce T8)
As a result, reaching the cap with a fairly standard prot build (which includes redoubt) is trivial.
Effectively, this has nerfed paladin threat fairly hard. On live, it was trivial to get 5k+ hits / 10k crits with raid buffs. On PTR, you will cap out at 3828 k / 7656k (roughly). The only buffs this will benefit from will be any % damage increasing buffs.
I was easily able to attain the cap with only self buffs on PTR (in full block gear, with self buffs and procs I reach 4.1k BV).
Effectively this means that paladin threat will only scale on about 75% of our threat abilities with raid buffs.
Redoubt now has much less value as a talent as its benefit drops as we get more block gear switching from a combined threat/mitigation talent to strictly a mitigation talent.
The change on threat from SoV does not make up the difference.
Addendum:
I was also able to demonstrate some extraneous results fooling around below the cap...occassionally, as long as my BV is slightly below the cap (2680 BV with procs) I would get unexpected results. The odd hit for 3947/crit for 7893 which is above the expected cap. The majority of hits would be as expected (3694 hit/7388 crit).
Still, no where near the results I can get on live.
5091 hit/10180 crit in full block gear (3026 BV with procs and cooldowns)
3946 hit/7892 crit in what I consider to be my normal tank gear 2346 BV with procs)
Note that either set on live gives me more threat from ShoR than I can get on PTR
First off, the BV Cap includes BV from both items and Str.
It also included BV from procs (librams and 4pce T8)
As a result, reaching the cap with a fairly standard prot build (which includes redoubt) is trivial.
Effectively, this has nerfed paladin threat fairly hard. On live, it was trivial to get 5k+ hits / 10k crits with raid buffs. On PTR, you will cap out at 3828 k / 7656k (roughly). The only buffs this will benefit from will be any % damage increasing buffs.
I was easily able to attain the cap with only self buffs on PTR (in full block gear, with self buffs and procs I reach 4.1k BV).
Effectively this means that paladin threat will only scale on about 75% of our threat abilities with raid buffs.
Redoubt now has much less value as a talent as its benefit drops as we get more block gear switching from a combined threat/mitigation talent to strictly a mitigation talent.
The change on threat from SoV does not make up the difference.
Addendum:
I was also able to demonstrate some extraneous results fooling around below the cap...occassionally, as long as my BV is slightly below the cap (2680 BV with procs) I would get unexpected results. The odd hit for 3947/crit for 7893 which is above the expected cap. The majority of hits would be as expected (3694 hit/7388 crit).
Still, no where near the results I can get on live.
5091 hit/10180 crit in full block gear (3026 BV with procs and cooldowns)
3946 hit/7892 crit in what I consider to be my normal tank gear 2346 BV with procs)
Note that either set on live gives me more threat from ShoR than I can get on PTR
Last edited by Garath.Gorefiend on Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 Garath.Gorefiend
 Posts: 406
 Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:07 pm
Re: ShoR testing on the PTR
Then dont wear block value gear like everyone else isn't. I sit at around 1.2k unbuffed BV, and I'm nearly in total BiS hardmode gear from 25 man, the only gear that has BV on for me are my tier gloves.
This is not a nerf for me YET because I simply don't hit that high, however it is an extremly retarded change. This makes it along with shield slam the only damaging ability to have dimishing returns  and yet we are not damage classes (it makes me wonder why dimishing returns was not added to DKs Frost strike when it was destroying the arena, or any other PvP destroying ability). It seems counter intuitive to buff block value to the point it was ok to have on your gear, and then nerf it so that in any real amounts it is only a mitigation stat  and an extremly poor one at that.
Another point to consider is how this will change in future content. I would imagine even if you TRIED to not get BV in T9 you would end up with a crapton of it, and heaven forbid level 90. There needs to be some sort of scaling based on itemlevel or something...don't know but it does just make the whole stat suck even more than it does now (to be honest).
Personally I hope this is just a PTR thing, because otherwise it shows how little foresight Blizzard seem to have with their own changes, and frankly seems very unproffesional (particularly if you track the changes to shield slam). Band aids to fix a band aid...no thanks.
This is not a nerf for me YET because I simply don't hit that high, however it is an extremly retarded change. This makes it along with shield slam the only damaging ability to have dimishing returns  and yet we are not damage classes (it makes me wonder why dimishing returns was not added to DKs Frost strike when it was destroying the arena, or any other PvP destroying ability). It seems counter intuitive to buff block value to the point it was ok to have on your gear, and then nerf it so that in any real amounts it is only a mitigation stat  and an extremly poor one at that.
Another point to consider is how this will change in future content. I would imagine even if you TRIED to not get BV in T9 you would end up with a crapton of it, and heaven forbid level 90. There needs to be some sort of scaling based on itemlevel or something...don't know but it does just make the whole stat suck even more than it does now (to be honest).
Personally I hope this is just a PTR thing, because otherwise it shows how little foresight Blizzard seem to have with their own changes, and frankly seems very unproffesional (particularly if you track the changes to shield slam). Band aids to fix a band aid...no thanks.
 Minarva
 Posts: 123
 Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:58 pm
Re: ShoR testing on the PTR
Minarva wrote:...
Another point to consider is how this will change in future content. I would imagine even if you TRIED to not get BV in T9 you would end up with a crapton of it, and heaven forbid level 90. There needs to be some sort of scaling based on itemlevel or something...don't know but it does just make the whole stat suck even more than it does now (to be honest).
Personally I hope this is just a PTR thing, because otherwise it shows how little foresight Blizzard seem to have with their own changes, and frankly seems very unproffesional (particularly if you track the changes to shield slam). Band aids to fix a band aid...no thanks.
Don't forget that they have some plan to clean it up that just isn't ready for 3.2. This is just a bandaid on a bandaid, while there's a miracle drug coming out that's supposed to cure it completely.
Whether it does or not... we'll see.
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain  It's time to roll the dice

Zalaria  Maintankadonor
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 Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:27 am
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