The Tier 5 to Tier 6 Transition

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The Tier 5 to Tier 6 Transition

Postby Neuron » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:10 pm

Ultimately, what is the message the Blizzard development team is trying to send to Paladin tanks? I subscribe to the effective health philosophy and believe in stamina, armor, and block value. So when I study this transition I get a bit confused.

Crystalforge Armor Raw Totals:
66 Block rating
156 Block value
0 Dodge rating
19 Parry rating
0 raw dodge rating from socket bonuses

Lightbringer Armor Raw Totals:
23 Block rating
47 Block value
119 Dodge rating
30 Parry rating
7 raw dodge rating from socket bonuses


What the hell is going on with the massive drop in block value and the massive increase in avoidance stats? I am not looking for a "so don't upgrade response or a you can tank illidan fine in T5" response. And yes I am capable of thinking outside of the box and ignoring socket bonuses and stacking +15 stam gems and am fully aware of all the other items that you can get. I am more so trying to decipher the message sent by the developers to us via the stat distribution.

In a pure comparison between T5 and T6, avoidance went way up and block value dropped (and somewhat block rating was lost although its not technically mitigation but you should get my drift). I also don't give a shit about the "meh you have plenty of block rating at that point" comment. That's irrelevant to what I am asking. Why the high avoidance?

Question 2: Also, if you are bored (don't give me the "ignore socket bonuses response" please), why no blue gem slots?
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Postby Teah » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:18 pm

The way I look at it is our tier sets have different purposes.

T4 can be used as a wonderful threat set for trash and adds.
T5 with it's high BV seems to be best itemized for Mount Hyjal trash and adds. T5 also is a decent threat set.
T6 is a huge dodge suit as you can see, is prolly itemized the best for tanking bosses and things that hurt in BT.

This is just how I view it though and since they have different purposes in my mind.. so well the drastic stat change doesn't bother me.
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Postby Neuron » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:21 pm

So you are agreeing with the developers supposed intention that the higher dodge is better for tanking bosses?
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Postby kvark » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:37 pm

doesn't it makes sence ? I prefer not geting hit by bosses =)
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Postby Gerilith » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:06 pm

I think T6 stats are pretty crappy. They really are. Ohh, well...good for tanking really hard-hitting Bosses. And how many of them will actually be maintanked by a paladin due to Shieldwall/Last Stand?

I don't know what they thought creating these Items.
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Postby Palafix » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:10 pm

The Effective health theory isn't a law written in stone. It makes assumptions.

In the ideal set up for the effective health theory, Healers have infinite mana and tanks always get healed often, making spike damage the only reason for tank death.

That's certainly a good way to view a lot of fights like gruul and such, but in the real game we know that healers don't have infinite mana. Sacrificing more avoidance for more health reduces your chances of dying to spike damage but increases the amount of mana healers spend healing you in the long run.

You could make the exact opposite assumptions. Assume that bosses hit for very little damage, but so frequently that a tank would never die to spike damage, but would die to healers running oom. In that situation, Avoidance would greatly extend the time which you can stay alive, in other words before the healers run out of mana.


Both of the assumptions made in these 2 examples don't hold in the game, and yes, the effective health assumption, in my opinion, is much close to how it really works, but healers can run oom.

If you look at both the warrior and the paladin armor sets, and compare the transition between t5 and t6, both show a substantial increase in avoidance, and a decrease in block value, but both increase armor and health. It's not like you're losing EH by switching from T5 to T6. The gains in stam and armor far outweigh the loss in Block Value. Block value isn't even that good, it's pretty crappy compared to stam while looking at it through the view of pure EH.

Now, I don't have any experience in BT/Hyjal, but I would assume that if healing in those instances becomes more intensive, then avoidance on the tanks would help reduce the strain on healers in the very long run.

Would the stat budget spent on T6 for Avoidance go better towards more stam and block value? That's up to you to decide, and I'm pretty sure the EH community as a whole would say yes.

Given a choice between 5% dodge, and nothing at all, which would you choose? Some people in the EH community might choose the nothing, but realize that 5% dodge is 5% less damage you take over the course of a boss fight, and 5% less damage healers have to heal through and (in reality less) 5% less mana that healers spend healing you.

Conclusion -
1) Avoidance isn't worthless
2) T6 still gets a massive upgrade in stam over T5
3) Maybe the Devs felt that T6 gave you enough effective health to avoid dying to spike damage
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Postby Lore » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:22 pm

Palafix wrote:In the ideal set up for the effective health theory, Healers have infinite mana and tanks always get healed often, making spike damage the only reason for tank death.


Not quite.

Effective Health builds on the idea that only the tank can survive spike death, whereas other members of the raid have ways to increase healer mana. It's built purely with a focus on clearing content that you aren't "geared up for", or constantly pushing on to the next boss regardless of what you killed the week before. It's basically just saying "I can't keep myself from dying to healer mana AND spike damage, and you can't do anything about me dying to spike damage, so I'll focus on that while you focus on having mana."

That said, I don't know what the deal is with T6. It's definitely better than T5, but it's almost a complete focus shift which is pretty uncommon.

Oh, and there are other kinds of gems than 15 stam? ;)
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Re: The Tier 5 to Tier 6 Transition

Postby Myotis » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:34 pm

Neuron wrote:Question 2: Also, if you are bored (don't give me the "ignore socket bonuses response" please), why no blue gem slots?

That is something they did on purpose to have you choose between getting the socket bonuses or not. Mages often use red gems ( +9 spell damage ) yet, their Tier 4 has 1 red socket, Tier 5 has none and Tier 6 also has zero red socket.
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Postby kedalic » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:11 pm

I have always focused on matching my socket bonuses in my gear, provided they aren't something silly like block rating =). Dodge in red, defense/stam in yellow, and stam in blue. The net effect is that, compared with a pure effective health tank, I trade off about 500-1k health for 1-2% more dmg reduction. One of the major reasons I do this, however, is that HP is easier to buff with consumables than avoidance is, which means that I sit at 83-84% melee dmg reduction with 18.2k raid buffed hp, while my stam stacking counterpart sits at 81% melee dmg reduction with 19.2k hp.

That initially doesn't seem like much of a difference in melee dmg reduction, but it actually comes out to huge differences in actual incoming dmg between us. As you hit the 80%+ dmg reduction figures, a 1% increase is a 5% decrease in the actual incoming dmg stream, making avoidance (which is the cheapest stat to actually raid dmg reduction) an extremely effective strategy, especially when buffed to the hilt in a raid. Lastly, when you aoe tank, say an entire SSC trash pull (go go 3 tank clears, which I have done) cutting the incoming DPS from all the mobs is best handled by a higher dmg reduction, as you are getting spam healed. The exception to this is pulls or bosses with a heavy magic component, as spell dmg ignores your melee dmg reduction, and makes the stamina stacker more useful. So, in our raid, we have a stam stacked warrior for things with heavy magic burst like the shaman on karathess, and me for the heavy melee fights such as Vashj with a grounding totem down, and effective roles for each.

Having personally seen how effective increasing melee dmg reduction is, the T6 gear really has me drooling, and shows that it is the right strategy to take with gearing (the current top tier gear itemization follows it).
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Postby corc » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:50 pm

there are a few (think 4) pieces of tanking gear that drop with high to crazy BV on them in BT, maybe yer just suppose to mix/match more.

Faceplate of the Impenetrable with 45 off of Illidian (lol)
Gauntlets of Enforcement with 36 off of Teron
Girdle of Mighty Resolve with 38 off of Bloodboil (yay pali stats)
Girdle of Stability with 56 off of Bloodboil as well

plus you can get those Red Havoc Boots too.

Another thing I've been thinking is that the tier sets seem to gear you for the next set of instances so maybe paladins will need more avoidance in the Sunwell Plateau...
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:32 am

Lore wrote:It's built purely with a focus on clearing content that you aren't "geared up for", or constantly pushing on to the next boss regardless of what you killed the week before.


Well that's the subjective claim at least, but I'd say any school of logic for gearing would claim that. To me effective health is more about dealing with spike dmg, which is pretty dangerous on most bosses, whether it comes in form of a burst of dmg or a lag in healing for one reason or another. The effectiveness of any style will always vary a bit by boss though, context means everything.
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Postby Girard » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:46 am

Teah wrote:The way I look at it is our tier sets have different purposes.

T4 can be used as a wonderful threat set for trash and adds.
T5 with it's high BV seems to be best itemized for Mount Hyjal trash and adds. T5 also is a decent threat set.
T6 is a huge dodge suit as you can see, is prolly itemized the best for tanking bosses and things that hurt in BT.

This is just how I view it though and since they have different purposes in my mind.. so well the drastic stat change doesn't bother me.

IMO:
T4 = threat set.
T5 = AOE set.
T6 = MT set.
So.. basically, I agree =)
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Postby fiorina » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:56 am

T5 trash tank and offtank
T6 MT and progress tank...

All that "dodge is just saving mana, you need mitigation" salad is true assuming you are farming content already. However for progress kills, when your healers suck, when you have bad lucky strikes of whatever, for sh*tty untuned encounters dodge is way to go :)

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Postby Lore » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:24 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Lore wrote:It's built purely with a focus on clearing content that you aren't "geared up for", or constantly pushing on to the next boss regardless of what you killed the week before.


Well that's the subjective claim at least, but I'd say any school of logic for gearing would claim that. To me effective health is more about dealing with spike dmg, which is pretty dangerous on most bosses, whether it comes in form of a burst of dmg or a lag in healing for one reason or another. The effectiveness of any style will always vary a bit by boss though, context means everything.


Yeah, exactly. It's pretty closely related. As you out-progress your gear, dealing with both spike damage and healer mana becomes impractical. So, since only the tank can deal with spike damage, they focus on that (with avoidance stats as a nice plus) while the burden of mana falls more to the rest of the raid.

As to T6 being a "MT" set... there are much better offset pieces for just about every slot. The only pieces I plan on wearing are the chest and the shoulders, and even then only the shoulders for the 2-piece bonus.
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Postby Warrender » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:44 am

T4 gear is what you need to wear in order to get T5.

T5 gear is what you need to wear in order to get T6.

T6 gear is what you wear around Shat in order to tell people you beat WoW.
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