Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby Nadir » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:37 am

On live with 92 white AGI as a BE Paladin, I have 5.03% naked dodge, or 3.2685% base dodge + 1.7664% dodge from white AGI.

On PTR I also have 5.03% naked dodge. With the change of the AGI to Dodge conversion, my white AGI should provide 1.5360% dodge. Does this mean that Paladin's base dodge has been increased to 3.4940%?
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby jere » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:15 am

They mentioned that base dodge levels were to be adjusted at some point when the dodge/parry/agility info was released.
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby towelliee » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:47 am

All this math is wayy too hard for me. So basically stack dodge until the ratio reaches a certain level and then start adding parry?

So basically according to patch notes my 8agi 12stam gems are like useless...
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby theckhd » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:02 am

towelliee wrote:So basically according to patch notes my 8agi 12stam gems are like useless...

Not sure why you'd say that, Agi is just as viable as it was before compared to dodge, nothing's changed there. I'll still be using agi/stam gems instead of dodge/stam gems.

I posted the rule of thumb upthread:
Code: Select all
    (character_sheet_dodge_% - 10) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 10) = 1.88


Just evaluate that ratio for your own character. If it comes out over 1.88, then start stacking parry. If it's under 1.88, stack dodge. The goal is to balance the two with your gemming decisions.
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby Rivia » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:34 am

theckhd wrote:
towelliee wrote:So basically according to patch notes my 8agi 12stam gems are like useless...

Not sure why you'd say that, Agi is just as viable as it was before compared to dodge, nothing's changed there. I'll still be using agi/stam gems instead of dodge/stam gems.

I posted the rule of thumb upthread:
Code: Select all
    (character_sheet_dodge_% - 10) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 10) = 1.88


Just evaluate that ratio for your own character. If it comes out over 1.88, then start stacking parry. If it's under 1.88, stack dodge. The goal is to balance the two with your gemming decisions.


So would this include buffs I would receive in a raid? Which would mean I would want to stack parry in anticipation of reaching a certain dodge %?
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby theckhd » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:05 pm

Rivia wrote:So would this include buffs I would receive in a raid? Which would mean I would want to stack parry in anticipation of reaching a certain dodge %?

Yes, it would include full raid buffs. Which means you need to adjust for any agility buffs you regularly have in your raids, or find someone to buff you while you check your character sheet.
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby Rivia » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:13 pm

theckhd wrote:
Rivia wrote:So would this include buffs I would receive in a raid? Which would mean I would want to stack parry in anticipation of reaching a certain dodge %?

Yes, it would include full raid buffs. Which means you need to adjust for any agility buffs you regularly have in your raids, or find someone to buff you while you check your character sheet.


With that logic, it might be beneficial to take gear with parry over dodge because of this then right? Assuming you have massive amounts of dodge.
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby jere » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:14 pm

I would guess at that point, the differences would be minor enough to not worry about. Being as close to optimum as you can is generally fine. If I had to guess, you could probably just keep your non-raid buffed balanced and be ok. Raid buffed would be slightly less than optimum, but if I had to guess, the delta wouldn't be too much.

I think this is more a guideline. It would be hard to keep that ratio all the time in a practical sense.

Theck might have some actual data on that though. I am just using conjecture.
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby Modal » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:26 pm

I think again, for most people, for most purposes, you can gear according to the following rules of thumb (for raid boss tanking, and assuming adequate threat stats will mostly come along with the rest):

1) Stay 540 defense, minimum
2) Stack stamina and armor
3) Skip any piece with block rating, unless it has way, way more stamina and armor than another piece
4) Make sure you don't totally ignore hit and expertise
5) If you want to socket a purple gem in a red slot to get a set bonus and/or activate a meta-gem, consider Agility/Stam first, since Agility gives armor. If you really want more avoidance, use Rating Buster to decide whether parry or dodge is better given your current gear. Err on the side of parry if it's very close, because of raid buffs (or, get some raid buffs and then check).

The end.

Ratios are interesting from a theoretical perspective, but since how much defense, dodge, and parry you have is restricted more by what high-EH gear is available than any other factor, for practical purposes you can forget them.
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby Creepydoc » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:01 am

Has anyone checked to see if the inscription shoulder enchants are equal to the other profession benefits after the avoidance nerf? One would think the dodge portion would need to be buffed.

I know they buffed all profession benefits, but I thought that was before this avoidance nerf. Can one of you PTR testers check it out for me?

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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby Nadir » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:18 am

Modal wrote:I think again, for most people, for most purposes, you can gear according to the following rules of thumb (for raid boss tanking, and assuming adequate threat stats will mostly come along with the rest):

1) Stay 540 defense, minimum
2) Stack stamina and armor
3) Skip any piece with block rating, unless it has way, way more stamina and armor than another piece
4) Make sure you don't totally ignore hit and expertise
5) If you want to socket a purple gem in a red slot to get a set bonus and/or activate a meta-gem, consider Agility/Stam first, since Agility gives armor. If you really want more avoidance, use Rating Buster to decide whether parry or dodge is better given your current gear. Err on the side of parry if it's very close, because of raid buffs (or, get some raid buffs and then check).

The end.

Ratios are interesting from a theoretical perspective, but since how much defense, dodge, and parry you have is restricted more by what high-EH gear is available than any other factor, for practical purposes you can forget them.


If you aren't picking up at least two pieces with block rating (shield itemization makes the first piece a no brainer of course), it's not likely that you're going to maintain unhitable status. None of our tier pieces will have block rating this go around.

Let's look at a player in known ilvl 232/245 pieces: 5/5 Tier 9, Saronite Swordbreakers (wrist), Clutch of Fortification (ring1), Loop of Twin Valkyr (ring2), The Arbiter's Muse (neck), Belt of Blooded Scars (waist), Greaves of Lingering Vortex (feet), and Satrina's Impending Scarab (trinket1). ilvl 239 pieces: Titanskin Cloak (back), Sorthalis (main h), Bulwark of Algalon (off h). ilvl 226 piece: Heart of Iron (trinket2).

Full buffs, Stoneblood, AGI food:
556 dodge rating
205 parry rating
776 defense rating
37 block rating
443 AGI

3.2 post DR Avoidance: 58.39%
Block: 43.56%
Block+avoidance: 101.95%

If Scorpid Sting/Insect Swarm is on the boss, you'd be unhitable. If not, you're short 0.45% versus level 83 mobs.
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:52 am

Nadir wrote:3.2 post DR Avoidance: 58.39%
Block: 43.56%
Block+avoidance: 101.95%


Looks good to me, although I also doubt the set you've picked out will maximize EH in 3.2, and I don't know what kind of threat stats it has. I guess I have one BR piece now, just because it's on the t8 helm. Otherwise I'd avoid it entirely, even in Ulduar.
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby Digren » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:27 pm

Modal wrote:I think again, for most people, for most purposes, you can gear according to the following rules of thumb (for raid boss tanking, and assuming adequate threat stats will mostly come along with the rest):

1) Stay 540 defense, minimum
2) Stack stamina and armor
3) Skip any piece with block rating, unless it has way, way more stamina and armor than another piece
4) Make sure you don't totally ignore hit and expertise
5) If you want to socket a purple gem in a red slot to get a set bonus and/or activate a meta-gem, consider Agility/Stam first, since Agility gives armor. If you really want more avoidance, use Rating Buster to decide whether parry or dodge is better given your current gear. Err on the side of parry if it's very close, because of raid buffs (or, get some raid buffs and then check).

The end.

Ratios are interesting from a theoretical perspective, but since how much defense, dodge, and parry you have is restricted more by what high-EH gear is available than any other factor, for practical purposes you can forget them.

This sounds a lot like the rule-of-thumb I'll put into the next generation gem and enchant guide, except I don't want to mandate an addon that most people won't bother to install. I think the macro is equally easy to use and a lot easier to set up. I bet the macro could be changed to that it doesn't just provide a number above or below 1.88; couldn't it be enhanced to report "Make your next gem <dodge>/<parry>" based on the calculation result?

When you get a new piece of gear during a raid, equip it immediately, enchant it, and then run the macro to know what gems to use, all while raid buffed. If your raids are like mine, enchanters and gemcutters are on hand so people can use their new gear as they get it, while eating a fish or clearing trash or setting healer assignments for the next boss.
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:00 pm

Yeah a macro would work too. But seriously, Rating Buster is an addon everyone who cares at all about the numbers behind their numbers should have.
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Re: Some preliminary conclusions concerning avoidance in 3.2

Postby Mithos » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:06 am

Ratings buster is pretty fucking awesome anyway. A non intrustive highly configureable addon is better than just a macro tbh.
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