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Too much Block Rating

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Too much Block Rating

Postby Leuthas » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:18 pm

I've been increasingly interested in building a block set lately, mostly for trash tanking and soloing BC heroics and vanilla raids.

I've been adding up the numbers on BiS block gear, and from what I've come to see, it should be possible to hit 50% block chance (unless the calculator I'm using is broken) without Holy Shield. This would put a Paladin at 80% block chance with Holy Shield; now asuming you have around a 10% (or less) dodge and 10% (or less) parry chance... is there any disadvantage to this much block? Obviously 50% block (w/o HS) chance with 20% parry and 28 dodge is useless, as it would be above the block cap.

I'd like to clarify, I am asking of mechanical disadvantages - not disadvantages of block's poor mitigation in raids such as Ulduar. Any help and/or citations much appeciated. :mrgreen:

*edit: From what I have thus far, 595 block rating is the max I've been able to attain, putting me at 47.01% block.
Last edited by Leuthas on Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why can't a Warrior Thunderclap while silenced?

You're actually clapping your thighs together with a force so powerful that you generate a sonic boom and the resulting electrostatic energy. Unfortunately, when you're silenced, you can't generate the audible force from your thunder thighs.

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Re: Too much Block Rating?

Postby Fugg » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:51 am

I think BlockCap is 75%. Libram of Obstruction gives you 20% and holy shield 30%, so there is only need for 25% Block if i remember that correctly. Of course Libram of Obstruction is not up all the time, but in my opinion it is better to go for more avoidance. What really matters is block value. In my current BlockGear I have around 2k Damage being blocked(absorbed) which isn't really satisfying.
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Re: Too much Block Rating?

Postby Leuthas » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:01 am

Fugg wrote:I think BlockCap is 75%. Libram of Obstruction gives you 20% and holy shield 30%, so there is only need for 25% Block if i remember that correctly. Of course Libram of Obstruction is not up all the time, but in my opinion it is better to go for more avoidance. What really matters is block value. In my current BlockGear I have around 2k Damage being blocked(absorbed) which isn't really satisfying.

Libram of Obstruction gives 20% block chance? What? :shock:

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40707
Why can't a Warrior Thunderclap while silenced?

You're actually clapping your thighs together with a force so powerful that you generate a sonic boom and the resulting electrostatic energy. Unfortunately, when you're silenced, you can't generate the audible force from your thunder thighs.

Image
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Re: Too much Block Rating?

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:11 am

There is block rating and block value.

Block value stacks linear. The more, the better (Though this would have to come at the cost of other stats, which are usually deemed more important, so don't go all out on this).

Block rating is a little more complex. Block rating is used to reach Block Capping, at which point every single incoming hit would be converted to a block. Due to diminishing returns, it's impossible to be Block Capped without having a cooldown such as Holy Shield, Redoubt or Shield Block up. Since Redoubt and Shield Block cannot be kept up consistently, Holy Shield is the only ability we can count on for block capping (This also makes paladins the only class that can reliably block cap).

The idea about block capping is keeping your total miss/dodge/parry/block up to 100%, leaving no space for hit. You can use macros or addons such as Tankpoints to show how much avoidance/block chance you have. (In Tankpoints, I recommend setting Holy Shield recast time to a value slightly higher than 2, like 2.5. This way, Tankpoints will not include Holy Shield in the avoidance. Then you simply need to gear so that hit falls just below 30%.)

Once you reach that 100% value, extra block chance falls off the table, and thus becomes useless.
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Re: Too much Block Rating?

Postby Leuthas » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:35 am

Thels wrote:There is block rating and block value.

Block value stacks linear. The more, the better (Though this would have to come at the cost of other stats, which are usually deemed more important, so don't go all out on this).

Block rating is a little more complex. Block rating is used to reach Block Capping, at which point every single incoming hit would be converted to a block. Due to diminishing returns, it's impossible to be Block Capped without having a cooldown such as Holy Shield, Redoubt or Shield Block up. Since Redoubt and Shield Block cannot be kept up consistently, Holy Shield is the only ability we can count on for block capping (This also makes paladins the only class that can reliably block cap).

The idea about block capping is keeping your total miss/dodge/parry/block up to 100%, leaving no space for hit. You can use macros or addons such as Tankpoints to show how much avoidance/block chance you have. (In Tankpoints, I recommend setting Holy Shield recast time to a value slightly higher than 2, like 2.5. This way, Tankpoints will not include Holy Shield in the avoidance. Then you simply need to gear so that hit falls just below 30%.)

Once you reach that 100% value, extra block chance falls off the table, and thus becomes useless.

All correct information, unfortunately not touching the idea of my original question. Essentially, what I asked is not if block chance is useful after 102.4%, but rather, (ignoring BV - pretending a block is 100% mitigation) Is there any disadvantage to build which provides ~10% dodge, ~10% parry and ~50% block, as compared to a build with ~30% dodge, ~20% parry and ~20% block. I know the forementioned avoidances aren't entirely realistic, however they should get the idea of my question across.

*edit: Also ignoring damage caused by Holy Shield and other similar abilities, and not considering Redoubt's proc.

Asuming, if there were no disadvantage to such high levels of block, the Libram of Repentance may atually be still useful - however the problem which I have run into at around 45-50% block chance, is that one must lower parry and dodge chance in order to maximize the block chance. Essentially lower dodge and parry below 10% each so that block (w/HS) can meet or exceed 80%. And in order to do this, Anticipation and Deflection must be omitted from my spec.

Again, this is why I seek any mechanical disadvantage to such high block chance.
Why can't a Warrior Thunderclap while silenced?

You're actually clapping your thighs together with a force so powerful that you generate a sonic boom and the resulting electrostatic energy. Unfortunately, when you're silenced, you can't generate the audible force from your thunder thighs.

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Re: Too much Block Rating

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:56 am

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood.

So, if I understand you correctly, you want to lower dodge and parry to raise your block chance? Why exactly? The only reason I can see is more Holy Shield charges being used.

Single Target: You really don't need the threat from Holy Shield that much.

AoE tanking: Holy Shield only has 8 charges. They're most likely burned up anyhow.

You'll only be taking more damage, as avoidance nullifies the damage, while block reduces the damage. In addion, block reduces a Holy Shield charge (even if you would've blocked without the +30% from Holy Shield), while avoidance does not.
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Re: Too much Block Rating

Postby Leuthas » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:02 am

Thels wrote:Oh, sorry, I misunderstood.

So, if I understand you correctly, you want to lower dodge and parry to raise your block chance? Why exactly? The only reason I can see is more Holy Shield charges being used.

Single Target: You really don't need the threat from Holy Shield that much.

AoE tanking: Holy Shield only has 8 charges. They're most likely burned up anyhow.

You'll only be taking more damage, as avoidance nullifies the damage, while block reduces the damage. In addion, block reduces a Holy Shield charge (even if you would've blocked without the +30% from Holy Shield), while avoidance does not.

At first, I started with building a simple Block Set for Naxx trash and pre-BC raid soloing (good fun!), however I've become quite curious as to the mechanics involved with having so much block. Personally, I believe that 80% block w/HS up would, as you said, end up causing you more damage, however that is by cause of Holy Shield, not an actual block mechanic itself.

Basicly, I've found a curiosity to which I know no answer... and I want to kill the cat - if you get my meaning. :wink:

*edit: The reason I am ignoring the fact that block only partially mitigates damage (estimated 3-4k in 3.2) is because, the set would only be intended for activities such as Naxx trash tanking, BC raids & heroics, as well as pre-BC raids - all of which have relatively soft-hitting mobs/bosses for the majority of the fights (for a level 80 tank, that is).
Why can't a Warrior Thunderclap while silenced?

You're actually clapping your thighs together with a force so powerful that you generate a sonic boom and the resulting electrostatic energy. Unfortunately, when you're silenced, you can't generate the audible force from your thunder thighs.

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Re: Too much Block Rating

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:12 am

But I still fail to see the reason behind actively lowering your dodge and parry chance.

Even in the case that you're doing full blocks and take no damage over dodge or parry, that's only an equivalent, not an improvement.
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Re: Too much Block Rating

Postby Leuthas » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:17 am

Oh no, not an improvement at all. I am looking (asking) to find if getting 102.4% with 50% block chance has some sort of diminishing return. Other than the obvious block value issue, I see nothing that would make it worse than a typical 'dodge/parry build' as compared to equivelant. I've come to the point where I just want the knowledge, not necessarily to use a huge-rating block set for anything in particular.
Why can't a Warrior Thunderclap while silenced?

You're actually clapping your thighs together with a force so powerful that you generate a sonic boom and the resulting electrostatic energy. Unfortunately, when you're silenced, you can't generate the audible force from your thunder thighs.

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Leuthas
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Re: Too much Block Rating

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:25 am

Well, in itself it has no disadvantage other than the complete lack of any advantage.
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Re: Too much Block Rating

Postby Leuthas » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:31 am

Well said! I think I may have found an answer, but let's see what others (secretly thinks of Theck) have to say.
Why can't a Warrior Thunderclap while silenced?

You're actually clapping your thighs together with a force so powerful that you generate a sonic boom and the resulting electrostatic energy. Unfortunately, when you're silenced, you can't generate the audible force from your thunder thighs.

Image
User avatar
Leuthas
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Re: Too much Block Rating

Postby Candiru » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:05 am

If you are uncritable, you already have: (roughly)
8%miss
15% parry
15% dodge

=38% avoidance.
with holy shield this puts you at 68% meaning you only need 32% block chance, or 27% additional block chance from block rating to be blockcapped.

And that's assuming no Horn of Winter etc.

Unless you are going for blockcapped without holy shield I don't really see the point in going above this! A dodge/parry/miss is always better than a block.
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Re: Too much Block Rating

Postby Leuthas » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:14 am

I think you missed the point, just as Thels did at first.
Why can't a Warrior Thunderclap while silenced?

You're actually clapping your thighs together with a force so powerful that you generate a sonic boom and the resulting electrostatic energy. Unfortunately, when you're silenced, you can't generate the audible force from your thunder thighs.

Image
User avatar
Leuthas
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Location: Scarlet Crusade (US)

Re: Too much Block Rating

Postby Fugg » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:56 am

Leuthas wrote:
Fugg wrote:I think BlockCap is 75%. Libram of Obstruction gives you 20% and holy shield 30%, so there is only need for 25% Block if i remember that correctly. Of course Libram of Obstruction is not up all the time, but in my opinion it is better to go for more avoidance. What really matters is block value. In my current BlockGear I have around 2k Damage being blocked(absorbed) which isn't really satisfying.

Libram of Obstruction gives 20% block chance? What? :shock:

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40707


Yes, I was totally wrong. Messed up with Libram of Repentance from TBC but that was only 5%. Dunno how that came to my mind. I must have been sleeping when I wrote this.
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Re: Too much Block Rating

Postby Candiru » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:35 am

You can think of the parry/dodge from talents as being "super-block". If you are blocking incoming attacks fully then they are equivalent, other than block depletes your holy shield charges. Surely you would be better trying to fill the whole table with block/parry/dodge/miss WITHOUT holy shield, so you could tank an infinite amount of mobs at once rather than trying to just make it with block alone, as that will eat holy shield charges very very fast and result in you taking a lot of unblocked hits?
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