Dodge DR *not the standard question*

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Dodge DR *not the standard question*

Postby rokkon » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:48 am

Ok this isn't the standard "when does it kick in" question.

I was having a conversation with a friend of mine when he mentioned something I had never heard before. He said dodge suffers from diminishing returns, as in the more you dodge in any given fight the less chance you have to dodge the next attack. I told him I knew stacking dodge rating suffered from diminishing returns but once you're avoidance is at a certain percentage, you will always avoid hits based on that percentage. His reply was

"If you have 50% dodge 50% parry that's 100% avoidance...but both suffer diminishing returns. After each dodge or parry, your avoidance goes down slightly."

I had never heard or seen this before. I asked him if he had any resources I could read on it, and it was mainly anecdotal evidence so I wanted to ask you guys and see if anyone here knew for sure.
Last edited by rokkon on Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
rokkon
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:10 am

Re: Dodge Diminishing Returns

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:50 am

It is in effect always. But the percentage at which you should start to care is at 700 rating. But you have to be around 28% dodge for that.
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Dodge Diminishing Returns

Postby rokkon » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:55 am

Nikachelle wrote:It is in effect always. But the percentage at which you should start to care is at 700 rating. But you have to be around 28% dodge for that.


No offense but that really wans't the question at all :) In fact my first sentence was "This isn't your standard when does it kick in question". I understand diminishing returns in regards to stacking dodge. Read OP for details.

On a side note I'm almost at 28% dodge but I only have 554 dodge rating so the numbers you posted seem to be off a bit.
rokkon
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:10 am

Re: Dodge Diminishing Returns

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:57 am

rokkon wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:It is in effect always. But the percentage at which you should start to care is at 700 rating. But you have to be around 28% dodge for that.


No offense but that really wans't the question at all :) In fact my first sentence was "This isn't your standard when does it kick in question". I understand diminishing returns in regards to stacking dodge. Read OP for details.


Either I'm iliterate, or you changed your post at some point. At this point in the morning, either one could be true for me. :?

Edit: You ARE changing your posts after you've posted!
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Dodge Diminishing Returns

Postby Jasari » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:59 am

I've actually heard of quite a few people having the same inaccurate assumption that you friend has. But they're wrong.

Diminishing Returns simply means you get less % avoidance for each avoidance rating you acquire. It has nothing to do with your chance to dodge going steadily downward over the course of a fight.
User avatar
Jasari
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Dodge DR *not the standard question*

Postby rokkon » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:00 am

I edited the original just now to highlight the important parts and change the title to make sure people actually read it :)
rokkon
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:10 am

Re: Dodge Diminishing Returns

Postby badgermonkey » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:00 am

Dodging one attack does not lower your chance to dodge. It's mathematically less likely to dodge 3 hits in a row than just 2 etc, but it doesn't actually lower your chance. If you have 50% dodge (after diminishing returns), each time you are attacked, you have a 50% chance to dodge.

If your dodge + parry + miss came to 102.4%, you would never ever be hit.
Image
badgermonkey
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:36 pm

Re: Dodge DR *not the standard question*

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:01 am

rokkon wrote:I edited the original just now to highlight the important parts and change the title to make sure people actually read it :)


No, but you also changed your second post as I was responding because you can see I only quoted a small amount, which was your original response.

Jasari answered you. I'm walking away from this now.
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Dodge DR *not the standard question*

Postby Sathoris » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:03 am

Diminishing returns kicks in from the first Dodge Rating or Parry Rating you equip.

If i'm not mistaken Diminishing returns increases with every point of Dodge / Parry you equip on you. Meaning that at you will always gain less pure avoidance from a point of Dodge/Parry that you will be adding in the future.

Although there are some stats that are not affected by DR like: Block rating, Defence Rating (Converting into defence) but the amount of miss/dodge/parry gained is affected by DR.

Hope it helps.
User avatar
Sathoris
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:03 am
Location: Sunstrider EU

Re: Dodge DR *not the standard question*

Postby Mert » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:09 am

It's a common misconception but each hit is calculated entirely independently of all others before or after and they all run on the same percentages as each other (assuming the same attack each time, no changes in buffs/debuffs, no procs etc).

It's exactly like flipping a coin over and over. People often make the mistake of thinking you have 50% chance to get heads on your first flip but far less chance of getting heads five times consecutively, therefore the chance to get a head reduces the more times you flip it. That is, of course, incorrect. You always have a 50% chance to get a head on any flip of a coin as no matter how many times you've flipped it before as it will always only have two sides, heads and tails.

If you have 25% chance to dodge on the first hit you will have a 25% chance to dodge on the second and third hits too. However, you will have a 6.25% chance to dodge twice consecutively and a 1.5625% chance to dodge three times consecutively. That's not diminishing returns, however, that's simply the nature of probability. With 25% dodge chance, given a large enough sample size, you will eventually dodge exactly 25% of incoming hits.
User avatar
Mert
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:38 pm

Re: Dodge DR *not the standard question*

Postby Jasari » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:48 am

Sathoris wrote:Diminishing returns kicks in from the first Dodge Rating or Parry Rating you equip.

If i'm not mistaken Diminishing returns increases with every point of Dodge / Parry you equip on you. Meaning that at you will always gain less pure avoidance from a point of Dodge/Parry that you will be adding in the future.

Although there are some stats that are not affected by DR like: Block rating, Defence Rating (Converting into defence) but the amount of miss/dodge/parry gained is affected by DR.

Hope it helps.


This is not what the OP was asking at all... hence the *not the standard question* in the title and the
Ok this isn't the standard "when does it kick in" question.


and the

No offense but that really wans't the question at all :) In fact my first sentence was "This isn't your standard when does it kick in question". I understand diminishing returns in regards to stacking dodge. Read OP for details.
User avatar
Jasari
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Dodge DR *not the standard question*

Postby NYRIN1 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:12 am

I think people are getting that misconception because DM is also attached to fear and now to taunt, where the more you do it the more likely the mob is become "immune". I bet they just hear DR and think "oh, you dodge less the more often you dodge" That would be pretty F-ing scary if you ask me... tryin to kill a boss before i can't dodge any more!!
Image
User avatar
NYRIN1
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:21 am
Location: Miami

Re: Dodge DR *not the standard question*

Postby rokkon » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:27 pm

Thanks for the input everyone, it's always nice to double check these things to be certain.
rokkon
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:10 am

Re: Dodge Diminishing Returns

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:34 pm

badgermonkey wrote:Dodging one attack does not lower your chance to dodge. It's mathematically less likely to dodge 3 hits in a row than just 2 etc, but it doesn't actually lower your chance. If you have 50% dodge (after diminishing returns), each time you are attacked, you have a 50% chance to dodge.

If your dodge + parry + miss came to 102.4%, you would never ever be hit.

Which was proven by rogues tanking the black temple.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9668
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Dodge DR *not the standard question*

Postby majiben » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:35 pm

101.8% actually. Man no one remembers that.
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest