Reckoning

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Reckoning

Postby Imrial » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:08 pm

With 3.2 changes, reckoning is looking much more useful than it's been in a long time. However, I'm concerned about increasing chances of parry hasting the boss. Looking around here I've seen some people saying it's no longer possible. However, Auriaya has very painfully parry gibbed me and our other tanks more than once when the melee is not behind her for all but the sonic screeches. I think Hodir has once as well, but don't remember for sure. With reckoning looking more viable with the change to SoV, I'm curious about what others think about the chances of reckoning increasing parry hasting. Worth concern or negligible?
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Re: Reckoning

Postby Jasari » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:12 pm

I personally won't be picking up reckoning. The SoV change as it stands now only bumped it up from approx. 11 DPS per point to approx 15 DPS per point in T8 gear. Regardless of parry hasting, I value Divine Sacrifice + Divine Guardian higher than the 45-50 DPS I'd gain by putting 3 points into reckoning. Additionally, it's still behind every single other threat talent out there.
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Re: Reckoning

Postby badgermonkey » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:45 pm

Jasari wrote:I personally won't be picking up reckoning. The SoV change as it stands now only bumped it up from approx. 11 DPS per point to approx 15 DPS per point in T8 gear. Regardless of parry hasting, I value Divine Sacrifice + Divine Guardian higher than the 45-50 DPS I'd gain by putting 3 points into reckoning. Additionally, it's still behind every single other threat talent out there.


Once I'd stacked to 5, and leaving out Shield of Righteousness (to keep things level), I'm sure I was seeing a 450(ish)TPS increase with 3/5. Not that that's amazingly handy what with me already outthreating everything, but still worth considering.
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Re: Reckoning

Postby Khayne » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:39 pm

This post may be pretty frank, and it's partially opinion, but tired of seeing "Parry gib" on so many forums as fearful thing.

Short version:
Reckoning parry-gibs are mostly bullshit.

Long version, half a year back or something we counted the "incoming damage difference" between Last Laugh and Broken Promise, caused from the weapon speed difference.

iirc, we were talking something around 1% more attacks against us. And that 2,6sec vs. 1,6 sec difference on parriable attacks is same as having allmost 40% haste.

Sure, auriaya might have had some attack hasted to instant.
That's with having 6 people melee her from front with faster swing speeds than you, and with many many more parriable special attacks each than you'll do. Which means while you might have died to it, your own contribution to that is miniscule.

If you want to check out personal danger, just put:
Reckoning up time (there's was a graph somewhere around here for reckoning uptime with different points amounts in it and different amoun of attackers), Your chance to be parried (15%-expertise effect?), and the increased speed/parry (20% on avg).

and compare that to your current situation (the chance to be parried, with the speed/parry.).
I even dug the graph thread, it's this one:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5124

now, examples:
if i now had 10% chance to be parried and every parry makes 0,2 strike to me (makes the strike 20% faster), that means because of parries i take 2% increased amount of attacks.

even if i had 100% uptime on reckoning, it'd double that so it'd be 4%.

In 1 boss situation, we're talking reckoning giving us much less than 50% haste, so sub-1% increased attacks (of which you'll even avoid your usual avoidance amount, so what 60% or so? Wee, reckoning increases damage taken by less than 0,1%/point?). You will have many times that in variance just from your avoidance.


Back on topic, i'll atleast first skip reckoning (plan on grabbing DG or keep my current imp. HoJ, the taunt cd reductions on sets makes me feel that there'll plenty of adds around in next tier raids, and adds are usually stunnable) while going to crusade again with vindication. If i feel i need more threat, i might move those utility points to reckoning. I think reckoning might be one of the contenders for those few random points before we get to 6th tier in prot in 3.2.
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Re: Reckoning

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:48 pm

Parry haste is a minor concern, but over the course of the fight you will take a little extra damage from it with reckoning. However, no boss will ever have an instant attack caused by parry haste. The amount of haste the boss gets is relative to how much time is left on their swing timer. If they have less than 40% (I think) then a parry grants them zero haste. Also, an attack is only hasted once. So while Auriaya might have every attack hasted because everyone is in front of her, there is a still limit as to how fast each attack will come.
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Re: Reckoning

Postby Khayne » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:46 am

Actually the way i remembered it was that while the hasting of current swing is 40%, it can happen regardless of what part of swing the mob is on.
examples with a mob that has 1.0 swing speed (i know it's unrealistical, just an example)

mob just starts swing when he parries=>he hits you 0.6 seconds from last hit since parry cut 40% of 1.0 secs.
mob is halfway in swing => he hits you in 0,8 since parry cut 40% of 0,5 secs.
mob is just finishing swing => he hits at same speed as usual since he doesn't have anything left of the swing he's currently on to haste. 40% of 0 is still 0.

hence, 20% hasted attack on average/parry.

Also, did they change that mob can only gain parry haste effect just once? thought there was no limit (so after 2nd parry in same swing the mob would hit at 64% hasted speed).
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Re: Reckoning

Postby Rhî » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:44 am

Reckoning
"Gives you a 4/8/12/16/20% chance after being hit by any damaging attack that the next 4 weapon swings within 8 sec will generate an additional attack. These additional attacks can't be dodged, blocked, or parried."

Parry haste gone. And the dps increase would be more in-line with "conviction 1/5 + crusade 3/3" or "seals of the pure 4/5".
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Re: Reckoning

Postby jere » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:10 am

Khayne wrote:Actually the way i remembered it was that while the hasting of current swing is 40%, it can happen regardless of what part of swing the mob is on.
examples with a mob that has 1.0 swing speed (i know it's unrealistical, just an example)

mob just starts swing when he parries=>he hits you 0.6 seconds from last hit since parry cut 40% of 1.0 secs.
mob is halfway in swing => he hits you in 0,8 since parry cut 40% of 0,5 secs.
mob is just finishing swing => he hits at same speed as usual since he doesn't have anything left of the swing he's currently on to haste. 40% of 0 is still 0.

hence, 20% hasted attack on average/parry.

Also, did they change that mob can only gain parry haste effect just once? thought there was no limit (so after 2nd parry in same swing the mob would hit at 64% hasted speed).


He was saying only once per swing. Also, the current thoughts (and actually some of the original thoughts) on parry are that it caps at a certain value. Swings get hasted up to a certain point and are no longer hasted past that point (on a single swing). There was some discussion on it at EJ a couple years ago. It might have been in the warrior or rogue forums though. It's been so long, so I can't remember.

Rhî wrote:Reckoning
"Gives you a 4/8/12/16/20% chance after being hit by any damaging attack that the next 4 weapon swings within 8 sec will generate an additional attack. These additional attacks can't be dodged, blocked, or parried."

Parry haste gone. And the dps increase would be more in-line with "conviction 1/5 + crusade 3/3" or "seals of the pure 4/5".


Is that a patch change or a suggestion for a patch change?
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Re: Reckoning

Postby Rhî » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:56 am

A suggestion.
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Re: Reckoning

Postby Vedge » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:19 am

I have seen a few times in earlier posts saying that parry haste on bosses was turned off. Didn't test it myself and didn't see any testing results either, so it may not be true. However it's not the 1-2% increased damage over the course of a fight that will kill you, but the spike damage it causes. I still rember in TBC with crushing blows, where warriors would get gibbed from being parried and losing their Shield Block stack too early, thus taking a crushing blow and dying. That's the most dangerous part of being parried as you won't want to be hit a second after the previous swing when the swing timer of a boss is 2.6s. Not even talking about 2 paries in row.
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Re: Reckoning

Postby Mert » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:40 am

Rhî wrote:Reckoning
"Gives you a 4/8/12/16/20% chance after being hit by any damaging attack that the next 4 weapon swings within 8 sec will generate an additional attack. These additional attacks can't be dodged, blocked, or parried."


I still dream that one day I'll see it read:

Reckoning
"Gives you a 4/8/12/16/20% chance after being hit by any damaging attack that the next 4 weapon swings within 8 seconds will generate an additional attack as Holy damage."

Alas, I fear I never will.
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Re: Reckoning

Postby Inimicus » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:15 pm

On the bosses that parry hastening would insta-gib you, Blizzard will removed or reduce the effect so it won't happen. It won't be like TBC Supremus days when tanks would die in the blink of an eye.

Don't worry about the parry hastening.

As for me, reckoning has always been dirty to me as it's been so poor, I'd love to see it made into something. I do hope some changes are made and that it becomes more viable. I'll probably aim to go for 5/5, rather than going 3 or 4, I just feel not maxing it would hurt the talent itself.
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