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Dodge/Parry cap before DR

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Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby ArmsOfWar » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:23 pm

I am sure this has been posted here before, I just cant find it.

Could any one post some numbers for dodge and perry to short for before demolishing returns kick in(boss tanking)? I need to know what stats I am short on for boss tanking.

Also if any one has any numbers for the PTR for dodge/perry (if they are going to change) I would love to see those also.


P.S. I love this site!! I read daily due to all the great info!
Last edited by ArmsOfWar on Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dodge/Parry cao before DR

Postby Elsie » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:38 pm

rating before DR kicks in: 0

Also, welcome to the site. Glad you love it. But, you may want to work on your English a little there =)
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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby ArmsOfWar » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:41 pm

Elsie wrote:rating before DR kicks in: 0


Would you mind to explain a bit here? Are you saying there's no DR on dodge perry?

If not does any one have some "numbers to shot for"?
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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby spoon » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:01 pm

Hi,
although I have no idea who Perry is I can tell you what Elsie means; Dodge and Parry are constantly affected by diminishing returns, the more you 'stack' the greater the diminishing effect for that particular stat. This is also true for Armor, Block and Defense Rating.
Last edited by spoon on Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby badgermonkey » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:50 pm

spoon wrote:Hi,
although I have no idea who Perry is I can tell you what Elsie means; Dodge and Parry are constantly affected by diminishing returns, the more you 'stack' the greater the diminishing effect for that particular stat. This is also true for armor, block and defense rating.


Dodge and PArry are ALWAYS affected by diminishing returns.

Armor and Defense rating are most definately NOT. I believe block isn't either.
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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby spoon » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:14 pm

badgermonkey wrote:
spoon wrote:Hi,
although I have no idea who Perry is I can tell you what Elsie means; Dodge and Parry are constantly affected by diminishing returns, the more you 'stack' the greater the diminishing effect for that particular stat. This is also true for armor, block and defense rating.


Dodge and PArry are ALWAYS affected by diminishing returns.

Armor and Defense rating are most definately NOT. I believe block isn't either.


Defense Rating contributes to all aspects of avoidance... these stats suffer from diminishing returns, therefore, defense rating's worth diminishes in kind. As for armor, as far I know it is also affected by DR... unless I have it wrong and the armor:mitigation ratio differs with Armor type. How else would a cloth user be at 2000 Armor and around 12% PDR when plate tanks at 25k armor have roughly 62% PDR... (PDR = physical damage reduction).

BTW, when I said Block suffers from DR I of course meant Block Rating.
Last edited by spoon on Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby Aragão » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:16 pm

badgermonkey wrote:Dodge and PArry are ALWAYS affected by diminishing returns.

Armor and Defense rating are most definately NOT. I believe block isn't either.


About the armor i knew, but are you sure Defense is unnaffected by DR itself? If it Isn't, is the amount of extra dodge/parry/miss you get from it Affected by Dr or does it work like a Flat increase (Like the Anticipation Talent or DK's Rune of SwordShattering)?

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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby ArmsOfWar » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:35 pm

Even those both Dodge and parry(sorry for the misspell) are both ALWAYS affected by diminishing returns there should still be a number in which to shot for(my guess) when tanking Uld bosses. Can any one give me any idea about what those numbers are?
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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby Aragão » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:56 pm

Aim for something around 25% dodge, 20% Parry and you should be fine.

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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby jere » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:01 pm

Aragão wrote:
badgermonkey wrote:Dodge and PArry are ALWAYS affected by diminishing returns.

Armor and Defense rating are most definately NOT. I believe block isn't either.


About the armor i knew, but are you sure Defense is unnaffected by DR itself? If it Isn't, is the amount of extra dodge/parry/miss you get from it Affected by Dr or does it work like a Flat increase (Like the Anticipation Talent or DK's Rune of SwordShattering)?

Great Hug


He is totally incorrect about Defense. The avoidance gained from defense is subject to DR.
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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby Modal » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:25 pm

But, defense rating converts to defense skill at a constant rate. That conversion doesn't diminish.

The only things subject to DR are dodge chance, parry chance, miss chance, and mitigation % from armor. Since defense contributes to three of those, its contribution to those does diminish as they increase.

Block Rating converts to block chance at a constant rate, as does Defense Skill; no diminishing returns on block.

All diminishing returns are always active; there is no point at which they "kick in." Every .01 dodge, miss, or parry chance from dodge rating, parry rating, agility, and defense skill means the contribution from your next point of dodge/parry rating, defense, and agility will be less than the previous point. Similarly, every 1 point of armor means that the next point of armor will contribute less to your physical damage mitigation.

One needs to be clear about which gear stats (defense rating, dodge rating, defense skill, etc.) contribute to which character sheet stats in order to coherently talk about diminishing returns. Some contributions diminish, while others don't. For example, the 5% dodge you get from talents does not cause your dodge rating's contribution to dodge chance to diminish, even though 5% dodge from dodge rating would.
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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby Elsie » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:30 am

To add to the above, armor's damage reduction suffers diminishing return, but its Time To Live (TTL) gains do not. That is, X armor will always give you x% more "time to live" no matter if it is the first X armor or last X armor you have.

As others have said, Defense Rating merely gives Defense Skill. The avoidance gained from defense is factored into the respective avoidance type and then DR is calculated. For example, Dodge gains from dodge rating, agility, and Defense are calculated and then DR is applied. The same is true for Parry and Miss.
The other functions of Defense, Block chance and critical strike chance reduction, have no diminishing return aspects.

What does this mean? It means for -any- value of an avoidance rating or non-base agility there is some diminishing return. This begins even at 1 dodge rating - hence, the only "unaffected" amount of an avoidance stat is when your value of it is 0.

Thus, as tanks, you must balance your avoidance stats' diminishing value with Effective Health (EH) stats which do not have any diminishing returns. However, we must remember that EH tends to be preferential in intervals depending on the boss. This gets into the "Worst Case Scenario" modeling and varies from fight to fight. For example, going from 30,000 HP to 35,000 HP is not very helpful when the boss hits for 25,000 damage and you are still two-shot (this example ignores talents and whatnot for simplicity).

Since armor gains TTL linearly, it is considered an Effective Health stat along with Stamina.
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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby Venoseth » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:48 am

Defense / Dodge / Parry / Armor are all subject to DRs at every level, and that being said, it's also true that any point you add to that stat will be "worth more" but receive stronger diminishing returns than the previous points. So what does that mean?

Each point you put into a stat is worth as much as each previous point when you look at each stat independent of the other stats (but when you look at all of your stats together dodge/parry/defense need to be put on in certain ratios to ensure maximum effectiveness because they're all in the "avoidance" category).

Unless I'm mistaken?
Last edited by Venoseth on Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:45 am

For the record, Block Rating is not subject to any DR.

The rest of the above remains true.
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Re: Dodge/Parry cap before DR

Postby jere » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:51 am

Modal wrote:But, defense rating converts to defense skill at a constant rate. That conversion doesn't diminish.


If you really wanted to get technical, dodge rating isn't affected by DR. The conversion from dodge rating to dodge percent is unaffected by DR. It's the dodge % after adding dodge from rating and agility and defense that is then affected by DR. But we honestly shouldn't be making those distinctions. We should be saying things like "the avoidance from defense is subject to DR" and "all avoidance minus those from % talents and naked stats is subject to DR, whether it come from dodge rating, agility, or defense".

EDIT: After rereading, the response seemed to combative, so I apologize if it came out mean (wasn't intended to). I edited out some of it to avoid sounding mean.
Last edited by jere on Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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