3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby honorshammer » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:37 am

Wardari wrote:I actually have more health than our Warriors when they buff themselves with Commanding shout, around 1k more in fact but I am going faily stamina heavy but who isn't right now - I think our 10% stamina from talents serves us really well due to its scalability. You could also factor in our 10% stamina from BoK as our equivalent of commanding shout I guess if you wanted to be really picky in which case i'm miles out in front of our Warriors - but again this is rather a moot point as we're throwing buffs all around now.


But comparing yourself to your Warriors is not really relevant. While you may be 'similiarly' geared because you are at the same tier, it's unlikely you are equivently geared. The only comparision that really has value is an 'in theory' Paladin versus an 'in theroy' Warrior, DK, Druid, etc.
User avatar
honorshammer
Moderator
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby toothdecaykills » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:28 am

Wardari wrote:I appear to have misunderstood something then, as I thought that the 2 minute of AD effect was lost even with the recent revise where the healing scales with defense etc.


I may have as well, but my own testing had shown otherwise. Either way, I agree with your sentiments if the limitation turns out to be intended.

Wardari wrote:If you're comparing tanks you'll need to compare them on a base to base value otherwise I can say well I get an additional 2.5k health from commanding shout. 

*edit* As for what Jere said below - we'd have to take both tanks minus all buffs - I've still got higher effective health as I'm a way out in front on health to our Warriors, but armor would be identical in the same gear.


I don't agree. A raid is a collection of 10 or 25 people. You do not tank raid bosses solo, you always have those other people, and usually in the case of 25 mans, you have all raid buffs covered for all tanks. Theck does his matlab analysis expecting full raid buffs as the data wouldn't directly reflect what we'd be capable of in a raid, so I kinda hold the same expectation.

My Warriors were competitive with me in EH, though we've lost a few raiders so the differenece are noticeable with our new replacements. Perhaps we're just in a different environment.

Wardari wrote:I disagree, Warriors do have to Glyph for Shield wall to compete with the other tanks in reality, if we're using Vezax enrage as the benchmark for cooldown usage seeing as it's the make or break fight for this type of thing where you can really tell the tanks apart.

In fact almost every Warrior tank I know right now is glyphing for this on Vezax and if doing hard modes are glyphed for it always.


I feel it's a choice. I concede that Vezax would likely require that glyph, but let us be honest, Vezax is hardly a fair bloody fight. On Steelbreaker and Thorim hard modes I outright REQUIRE my Warrior tanks to use unglyphed Shield Wall. These fights are designed to require a cooldown for the heavy hitting attacks and the cooldown isn't an important consideration here. In hindsight there's likely examples from both sides that make it almost seem like a choice based on the encounter.
toothdecaykills
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:50 pm

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby honorshammer » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:35 am

toothdecaykills wrote:My Warriors were competitive with me in EH, though we've lost a few raiders so the differenece are noticeable with our new replacements. Perhaps we're just in a different environment.


So because you outgear your new replacements, Paladins are ahead of Warriors in EH??

I would dare say your logic is flawed.
User avatar
honorshammer
Moderator
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:37 am

Pallys are clearly ahead of warriors in EH. Our health pools are pretty similar though.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9669
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby honorshammer » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:38 am

Fridmarr wrote:Pallys are clearly ahead of warriors in EH. Our health pools are pretty similar though.


So what pulls us ahead? Is it just AD?
User avatar
honorshammer
Moderator
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:39 am

Blocking every hit allows us to add our BV to our EH. Warriors can't do that.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9669
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby honorshammer » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:40 am

Fridmarr wrote:Blocking every hit allows us to add our BV to our EH. Warriors can't do that.


/dudesmackinghisforehad

I should have known that.
User avatar
honorshammer
Moderator
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby jere » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:23 pm

Do yall still keep 102.4% in ulduar? I know I typically fall below it in most of my boss tanking sets now that I have gotten some upgrades in ulduar. Maybe I just have crappy luck with loot drops, but I would have to sub out better gear to get 102.4% (a stam or avoidance trinket among other things).

I am a little hesitant to include it in my EH calculations exactly now adays. I mean, it's still a significant source of damage reduction, but since I can't seem to keep 100% uptime, I am not sure how to model it just yet. I could add a probability modifier, but then it really isn't EH anymore in the traditional sense.
Image
User avatar
jere
 
Posts: 2981
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby Nadir » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:35 pm

Even with 76 shield block rating I'm at about 101% raid buffed. I'm unhitable in theory only if Insect Swarm is up, but it seems like Redoubt and trinket avoidance cover my ass enough that I rarely see unblocked hits unless I made a mistake in my rotation.
Image
Nadir
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 8:37 am

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:39 pm

jere wrote:Do yall still keep 102.4% in ulduar? I know I typically fall below it in most of my boss tanking sets now that I have gotten some upgrades in ulduar. Maybe I just have crappy luck with loot drops, but I would have to sub out better gear to get 102.4% (a stam or avoidance trinket among other things).

I am a little hesitant to include it in my EH calculations exactly now adays. I mean, it's still a significant source of damage reduction, but since I can't seem to keep 100% uptime, I am not sure how to model it just yet. I could add a probability modifier, but then it really isn't EH anymore in the traditional sense.

I don't gear for it, but I'm above 102.4 with buffs.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9669
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby Wardari » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:09 pm

jere wrote:Do yall still keep 102.4% in ulduar? I know I typically fall below it in most of my boss tanking sets now that I have gotten some upgrades in ulduar. Maybe I just have crappy luck with loot drops, but I would have to sub out better gear to get 102.4% (a stam or avoidance trinket among other things).

I am a little hesitant to include it in my EH calculations exactly now adays. I mean, it's still a significant source of damage reduction, but since I can't seem to keep 100% uptime, I am not sure how to model it just yet. I could add a probability modifier, but then it really isn't EH anymore in the traditional sense.


I don't gear for it anymore, my block % without holy shield is a very low 11%, however addon holy shield plus my dodge which is pushing 28% unbuffed and a further 19% parry, then addon raid buffs and defensive chance to miss and i'm laughing - just making 102.7%.

With the emblem libram up (which sadly isn't 100% uptime at the moment as we all know - bring on 3.2 :D) i'm pushing about 1700 SBV when fully buffed up - oh actually that's not an entirely accurate number as I was up until recently still using the t7.5 helm as Vezax refuses to drop his on 25 man :( but i grabbed the helm from 10 man freya as a stop gap till vezax drops his, so I can drop a little block from that, so say around 1600 SBV with libram.

*edit* just briefly checked an i'm at 1503 SBV with libram up sans all other buffs, so 1600 is a fairly good estimate.

SBV is hardly something anyone stack these days, but with our unhittable status certainly makes it a nice "icing on the cake" stat for that little bit extra EH.

I'd say for your calculations, work our if you're unhittable first with the raid buffs, they certainly do add up to a nice little bit of extra avoidance and then just work out your block value buffed, sans libram buffs - unless you're using the vezax libram ofc (yet another thing he refuses to drop for me >.<) I guess it'll take a little time to calcuate as you'll obviously need to take into account things like strength of earth totem, BoK, GoTW and then factor in the 15% strength from divine strength and finally 30% additional block from Redoubt. To be fair it would probably be easier to just check your buffs next raid, make sure you have all possible strength buffs and then just see how much you're blocking for without any other block buffs that aren't 100% uptime.

I'd be very interested to know what kind of percentage extra EH we gain from this too :) If you wish I can provide you with some values for myself from our next raid, just drop me a PM if you'd like these :)
Wardari
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:32 am

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby Dalithe » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:01 am

Honestly don't even think of it anymore. Maximize EH then dodge. For the most part you either get hit and live, don't get hit, or get hit and die. Very rarely does it come to "OMG he hit me for 48k but I blocked 1400 and lived!"
Dalithe
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:30 am

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby Dread » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:23 am

Not long into 3.0 I realized what I'd have to sacrifice if I really wanted to stay at 102.4% and since then have usually been short a few percentage points when raid buffed. The best way to model it would probably be to average it by taking your actual avoidance + block % (including HS and post-DR) and dividing it by 102.4. Then multiply that by your block value. That should give you your average block mitigation.
Dread
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:36 pm

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby gregorian » Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:20 pm

That isnt based on any sound logic. Firstly you are ignoring base chance of boss to hit you, and the extra miss chance from your defense skill. Then you are taking account these avoidance numbers into calculating your EH with block value? Assuming you are block-capped then BV=EH, otherwise its your chance to block as a fraction of the combined unavoided percentage (block+incoming hit) multiplied by BV as a rough but still incorrect guide.

eg 52.4% dodge/parry/miss, 40% block, 10% hit, 1000BV: estimated EH from BV is 40/(40+10)*1000=800HP

Using your proposed WAG method i come up with 902. Be reminded that while avoidance helps you block cap so that your BV=EH, it should in no way be used in the actual calculation for EH. EH is only health and damage reduction (talents, armor and block value) with the latter two only applying for physical and the last only if it is in play 100% of the time (block cap please).

Honorshammer wrote:But comparing yourself to your Warriors is not really relevant. While you may be 'similiarly' geared because you are at the same tier, it's unlikely you are equivently geared. The only comparision that really has value is an 'in theory' Paladin versus an 'in theroy' Warrior, DK, Druid, etc.


Its the most relevant class we can compare to since they are the only other tank that can block. For the warrior-pally health comparison,the only difference in stamina for these two classes are talents and the relic/ranged slot, where warriors have +6% stam modifier with a 57 stam gun and pallies with +6 AND +8% modifier with no gun. since all stam modifiers are multiplicative, you can say that warriors have a flat 57 stamina bonus while pallies have 8% total stam modifier. and this works out to pallies always having more stamina regardless of lacking a stamina gun. since the threshold works out to be 712.5 total stam, and with ulduar pallies running at least 2400 unmodified stam(plain lv80 base+gear), we can see how pallies will always out-stam warriors. at a rough 2400 unmodified stamina value, we are looking at 135 stamina disparity in favour of paladins. does this mean that pallies always have more health? with kings, yes. otherwise, neg. base warrior hp happens to be 1.35k more than base paladin hp. warr and pally hp's are close, with small differences arising from tier gear stats design, a small scaling advantage for pallies when kings is involved (less than half % point),and also from gemming requirements, where warriors tend to need to gem expertise while good paladins dont.
gregorian
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:08 am

Re: 3.2 Protadin Change Compilation

Postby toothdecaykills » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:37 pm

Honorshammer wrote:
toothdecaykills wrote:My Warriors were competitive with me in EH, though we've lost a few raiders so the differenece are noticeable with our new replacements. Perhaps we're just in a different environment.


So because you outgear your new replacements, Paladins are ahead of Warriors in EH??

I would dare say your logic is flawed.


I was responding to he who said our health pools were routinely ahead of theirs by huge margins. I was giving a situation where they were ahead, but lamented that they weren't with me any longer. Sorry, I was pretty tired after a boring day of work, it WAS pretty confusing wasn't it =/
toothdecaykills
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:50 pm

Previous

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest