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So, 3.2 specs

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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby Dorvan » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:36 am

QuantumDelta wrote:Btw, why champion Crusade?
It only really works on 1 and two-thirds boss fights in current content -.-


Crusade is an excellent threat talent on *any* content (almost double the value per point of SotP or Conviction). The bonus against certain mob types is gravy, but interest in the talent is not dependent on having the right mob type available. See theck's big analysis thread in advanced training for the exact numbers.
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:15 am

QuantumDelta wrote:Btw, why champion Crusade?
It only really works on 1 and two-thirds boss fights in current content -.-

As Dorvan pointed out, Crusade works on everything. It's a 3% boost to all damage on every mob in the game. And even with only that, it's nearly double the effectiveness of SotP. The only things better are Touched by the Light and One-Handed Weapon Spec.

On specific mob types, it's a 6% boost, at which point it's much, much better than SotP, and in fact surpasses TbtL.

The gritty details are here if you want them. I'll be re-running all of the numbers for 3.2 soon to see how the new mechanics change things.
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby QuantumDelta » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:58 am

Haven't been frequenting advanced training since I stopped hardcore 25mans, so I missed that, skimming through it does indeed seem worth it point for point (not that I am championing sotp currently either, nor reck), your analysis would be a bit more transparent if you calculated threat-gain per point of talent against other talents then associated that value with the "9" points wasted off the base spec I say 9, cuz that's what 6-15 comes out at, and I say it in speechmarks because you can easily justify 3 of those points immediately in conviction, another 2 in PoJ but the rest is pure waste (Retri brings both imp bom and hotc, vindi isn't useful yet! PoJ is debatable but I swear by it, and if you're wondering about my current spec, it's because I've been doing some really pearshaped 10man raid comps), unless you want 2/2 JM for a little more free-flow in a different rotation if you need to break out of 969.

HUMMs... But then I knew I was gonna have to do a lot of math when PTR went up.
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby Conaan! » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:01 am

you dont really "waste" points getting to conviction, you gain utility, which, thats all you will gain by speccing sotp and having points left over anyways, there is no reason not to spec 0/53/18, or 0/54/17
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:58 am

I admit, I'm tempted to put points in Imp. HoJ rather than Crusade, even, so SotP (worse than Crusade) is even less appealing to me. ;)
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby Dread » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:02 pm

theckhd wrote:
  • For one thing, I don't see why everyone thinks that SotP will be better than Crusade - it would have to nearly double in effectiveness for this to happen, and the weapon damage addition will almost certainly not double our SoV damage.
  • As the trees stand now, people desiring Vindication will have to go at least 10 points into Ret, unlocking Conviction. If Crusade is still considerably better than SotP (and it will be), it's likely that 1 Conviction + 3 Crusade will out-threat 5/5 SotP, and give you the added utility of Vindication and SotP. I'm still hoping for Vindication and Imp. BoMight to swap places on the tree so we have to spend less "filler" points to get to Conv/PoJ, letting us get Vindication, 3-5 points in Conviction, and 3 points in Crusade in the standard build.


I'm going to be very interested once coefficients are released and we see what SoV is really capable of in 3.2 on the PTR. The additional base damage as holy damage on every swing (including multiple targets with HotR) paired with the ability to crit for 200% holy damage makes me believe there could be some really interesting synergy between SotP, Reckoning, and SoV.

Last time you modeled it, SotP came out to ~40 TPS per talent point versus Crusade's ~70 TPS per point. I'd think that gap must have to close quite a bit with these changes, if not tip the balance toward SotP. I've never been a fan of SotP (nor spec'd into it), but I have a feeling these changes could be significant to us. Either way, it'll be interesting to see what Matlab shows.
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby Lightstrike » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:04 pm

I was going to make a topic on whether reckoning is now viable, instead of an idiot trap for tankadins who don't know what they're doing, but here seems like a good place to discuss the question..

# Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption: These seals have been redesigned to deal substantially more damage. Now, once a paladin has 5 copies of the debuff from these seals on his or her target, on each swing the paladin will deal 33% weapon damage as Holy, with critical strikes dealing double damage.

There is no mention of removing the damage from ticks, so we can surmise that they won't be changed.

Titanguard: 200 - 372 Damage - 94.38 per swing on average, which is roughly 179.22 threat per swing which is every 1.6 seconds so that equates to 112 TPS, i could be completely wrong here, so let me know if I am.
# Judgement of Light: Now heals for 2% of the attacker's maximum health instead of a variable amount based on the spell power and attack power of the judging paladin.

This = Judgement of Light is now the prot judgement of choice then I guess?
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby Meyrinn » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:21 pm

Dread wrote:
theckhd wrote:
  • For one thing, I don't see why everyone thinks that SotP will be better than Crusade - it would have to nearly double in effectiveness for this to happen, and the weapon damage addition will almost certainly not double our SoV damage.
  • As the trees stand now, people desiring Vindication will have to go at least 10 points into Ret, unlocking Conviction. If Crusade is still considerably better than SotP (and it will be), it's likely that 1 Conviction + 3 Crusade will out-threat 5/5 SotP, and give you the added utility of Vindication and SotP. I'm still hoping for Vindication and Imp. BoMight to swap places on the tree so we have to spend less "filler" points to get to Conv/PoJ, letting us get Vindication, 3-5 points in Conviction, and 3 points in Crusade in the standard build.


I'm going to be very interested once coefficients are released and we see what SoV is really capable of in 3.2 on the PTR. The additional base damage as holy damage on every swing (including multiple targets with HotR) paired with the ability to crit for 200% holy damage makes me believe there could be some really interesting synergy between SotP, Reckoning, and SoV.

Last time you modeled it, SotP came out to ~40 TPS per talent point versus Crusade's ~70 TPS per point. I'd think that gap must have to close quite a bit with these changes, if not tip the balance toward SotP. I've never been a fan of SotP (nor spec'd into it), but I have a feeling these changes could be significant to us. Either way, it'll be interesting to see what Matlab shows.


I think the changes will make things very interesting. We may have actual choices to make on our specs, and not have 90% of the Tankadins as cookie cutter specs. I think its highly unlikely that point for point SotP will outdo Crusade. For that to happen, SoV + JoV would need to be 33.33% of our damage. However, its possible the 5/5 SotP will overcome 3/3 Crusade and possibly 2/5 Conviction + 3/3 Crusade. SoV currently doesn't benefit from Haste, Crit, Hit, or Expertise. The new added weapon damage on swing will benefit from those stats. Also, its not big but HotR hits will proc the extra damage. Assuming the DoT portion doesn't get nerfed, its like getting a free 70% effectiveness version of SoB.

One thing I do hope they change in the iteration of the PTR is Reckoning. Its in the Protection Tree and its worse with faster weapons, and all tank weapons are fast. Making it a simple X% chance for an extra swing will make it independant of weapon speed. Though, I don't see any spare points for Reckoning. The 3.2 Vindication is just to tempting.
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby DanimalEQ » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:28 pm

Lightstrike wrote:
# Judgement of Light: Now heals for 2% of the attacker's maximum health instead of a variable amount based on the spell power and attack power of the judging paladin.

This = Judgement of Light is now the prot judgement of choice then I guess?


I think it's more along the lines of any pally can judge light, making it easier to organize, and balance around since not all raids will have a ret available for JoL. At that point, it's whatever your raid needs most.
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby Lightstrike » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:27 pm

I'm more of the opinion it will be Prots judging light now, it has been shown that we only need 1./2 SA and divine plea to keep our rotation going under normal circumstances, rets only judge light because it scales better for them, I would think that now it scales better for prot, prot will be judging light and rets can judge wisdom, or maybe they might make seal of justice actually worthwhile, i don't even know why its on my bar tbh..

Actually come to think of it, the vindication change should be applied to judgement of justice instead, keep vindication how it is imo, judgement of justice sucks right now so may as well make it useful.
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby QuantumDelta » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:32 pm

Lightstrike wrote:I'm more of the opinion it will be Prots judging light now, it has been shown that we only need 1./2 SA and divine plea to keep our rotation going under normal circumstances, rets only judge light because it scales better for them, I would think that now it scales better for prot, prot will be judging light and rets can judge wisdom, or maybe they might make seal of justice actually worthwhile, i don't even know why its on my bar tbh..

Actually come to think of it, the vindication change should be applied to judgement of justice instead, keep vindication how it is imo, judgement of justice sucks right now so may as well make it useful.

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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby Zeianna » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:31 pm

Lightstrike wrote:I'm more of the opinion it will be Prots judging light now, it has been shown that we only need 1./2 SA and divine plea to keep our rotation going under normal circumstances, rets only judge light because it scales better for them, I would think that now it scales better for prot, prot will be judging light and rets can judge wisdom, or maybe they might make seal of justice actually worthwhile, i don't even know why its on my bar tbh..

Actually come to think of it, the vindication change should be applied to judgement of justice instead, keep vindication how it is imo, judgement of justice sucks right now so may as well make it useful.

This is a misconception based on poor wording used by Blizz. It doesn't matter who judges light now, it returns health based on the person who is attacking, not the person who judged. I.E. a rogue attacking the mob will get 2% of HIS max health returned, the ret paladin will get 2% of HER max health returned, you will get 2% of YOUR OWN max health, etc.

Reread the JoL patch note again carefully:
Blue wrote:Judgement of Light: Now heals for 2% of the attacker's maximum health instead of a variable amount based on the spell power and attack power of the judging paladin.
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby Jonesy » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:42 pm

QuantumDelta wrote:Not quite sure I can see myself subscribing to an imp loh spec unless there's no holy paladins in the raid


"We started bringing a Holy Paladin to raids so I specced out of Last Stand".

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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby Conaan! » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:49 pm

Jonesy wrote:
QuantumDelta wrote:Not quite sure I can see myself subscribing to an imp loh spec unless there's no holy paladins in the raid


"We started bringing a Holy Paladin to raids so I specced out of Last Stand".

...



even with or without a holy paladin, imp LoH is not an oh SH*T button, yes, it gives an armor increase for a short period, but that is not comparable to a last stand or shield wall
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Re: So, 3.2 specs

Postby Nadir » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:10 pm

Conaan! wrote:
Jonesy wrote:
QuantumDelta wrote:Not quite sure I can see myself subscribing to an imp loh spec unless there's no holy paladins in the raid


"We started bringing a Holy Paladin to raids so I specced out of Last Stand".

...



even with or without a holy paladin, imp LoH is not an oh SH*T button, yes, it gives an armor increase for a short period, but that is not comparable to a last stand or shield wall

15 seconds of -20% damage reduction and a 100% heal on a 11 min CD. It's a tanking cooldown. We'll see in 3.2 if it'll be necessary for hard mode encounters.
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