Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby vexryn » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:56 pm

Raeli wrote:Maybe I misunderstood this but

"Block Value: The amount of bonus block value on all items has been doubled. This does not affect the base block value on shields or block value derived from strength."

Does that mean that the only gain at all will be from the items that have:

"Equip: Increases Block Value by 68." Which will go to 136.



You're misunderstanding it. They're not saying that block value on shields won't count for SotR anymore. They're saying that the block value on shields isn't DOUBLED.

So if I have a ring that increases block value by 68, it's not 136.

If I have a shield with 211 block value, it's still 211 (not doubled).

They're not removing shield block value from the mechanic entirely. They're just not giving it the doubled BV effect.
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby wrathblood » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:51 pm

IMO, the bonus to block value/SHoR combo will mostly work out to being a nerf to prot pallies, which, honestly, we can probably endure seeing as how our threat is NOT a problem right now, and we're getting two big handfuls of buffs to our survivability, which we actually need. Stacking BV you can probably get to 3k (at a serious cost in stamina and avoidance) which will be nice for some things but generally not worth it.

However, also IMO, it is a quiet way of boosting prot warrior threat (which they need) and mitigation (which they don't need as much but still probably need). I mean, 3k BV is doable now, which is 6k with shield block, and 12k with a crit block? Yikes. That's an extra shield wall and think of the slams. Of course, they'd have the world's spikiest incoming damage, and thus would probably deserve and modest +stam boost (+8% maybe), but add it all together and warriors would be looking pretty good.
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby Raeli » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:11 pm

Vexryn wrote:
Raeli wrote:Maybe I misunderstood this but

"Block Value: The amount of bonus block value on all items has been doubled. This does not affect the base block value on shields or block value derived from strength."

Does that mean that the only gain at all will be from the items that have:

"Equip: Increases Block Value by 68." Which will go to 136.



You're misunderstanding it. They're not saying that block value on shields won't count for SotR anymore. They're saying that the block value on shields isn't DOUBLED.

So if I have a ring that increases block value by 68, it's not 136.

If I have a shield with 211 block value, it's still 211 (not doubled).

They're not removing shield block value from the mechanic entirely. They're just not giving it the doubled BV effect.



I don't mean to be rude, but please go re read. I never said anything about block value not counting for ShoR (wtf is Sotr? There's no "the" in the spell name). They said that they are doubling the block value, but only on items, and not from strength of from a shield's base block amount. So seriously, what?

Not directly related to ShoR in anyway, of course the other side of the discussion here is because ShoR will only recieve 100% of BV as damage instead of 130%, but still, I think you are getting confused with things there I'm afraid.
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby Tomyris » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:59 pm

The change does make me a bit curious about how Algalon would work out with a BV set, given that he swings so light and fast. Even then, the problem seems to become one where BV gear is just generally inferior for bosses, given that it tends to stack BR (which you're probably capped on at any rate).
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby Ascendant » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:42 pm

forum's filled with optimists today huh?

1. the purpose of this change is to make block value gear more desirable , increasing the block value from STR and shields would counter that by increasing the value of avoidance gear as well. whether or not block value gear has any place in a main tank set is up to the number crunch (which should be easy to figure out)

2. block should never be as good as dodge/defense for damage reduction. considering that it doubles as an EH stat and then triples yet as a decent threat stat, you have to be willing to sacrifice damage reduction and possibly stamina to get it. that does NOT necessarily make it bad though. oh and BTW, threat does matter for any fights where your dps is getting special buffs. many dps threat cap on hodir and vezax hard modes to name the obvious ones.

3. the threat nerf to shield of righteousness may yet be compensated by the damage increase to seal of vengeance/corruption. this may also result in a change in our optimal tanking spec. go take a look at a WWS (or substitute) parse of some of your fights, multiply your Shor damage by 0.77 and your melee damage by 1.33 to get a rough estimate. I will probably do this myself later. the shor nerf was necessary though, having most of our damage weighted on one ability is bad, especially in a pvp setting.

4. i'll post this here, but it will probably come up in another thread; the buff to blessing of sanc will not make it better than kings if you have a disc priest, due to not increasing your agi and str. Disc priests are awesome for many reasons, and I would recommend including one in your raid (as an MT healer) if you aren't currently.
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby Varmin » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:22 am

Tomyris wrote:The change does make me a bit curious about how Algalon would work out with a BV set, given that he swings so light and fast. Even then, the problem seems to become one where BV gear is just generally inferior for bosses, given that it tends to stack BR (which you're probably capped on at any rate).


You also have to remember as block value gets checked twice per swing on algalon, so does avoidance (Though the avoidance of the offhand does drop in value, it's still quite good). Dropping your avoidance gear for BV is still not going to be worth it. (Though the slim pickings of gear with avoidance + block value might gain a little weight.)
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby Solare » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:34 am

I love block value gear without block rating. ^^
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby Lave » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:31 am

Solare wrote:I love block value gear without block rating. ^^

same here. 1k block value with block gear after 3.2 is ~5% less damage taken with even the hardest hitting ulduar bosses in mind
cant see anything wrong here.. ill loose like 5-7% avoidance by doing so and gain 5% more mitigation and quite a bit more threat. me likes! :mrgreen:
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby filosteel » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:37 am

i think that probably we shall do some more toughts about our Main Tanking set atm...

With this Block Value doubled on items, maybe it would be worth it to go for a full Block Value set for our main set...
With my block value set atm i'm somewhere near 2100 block value, unbuffed.
With the changes i shall gain at least another 1000 block value... it's true that they don't increase the base block value on the shields and the block value gained from str. but HEY the extra block value counts for Redoubt aswell!!

i think that if raid buffed and with the procs of librams and T8.5 set bonuses etc we can reach something like 4000 - 4500 block value...
then maybe it could be worth to use a block set as normal tanking set?
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby Tomyris » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:02 am

Do you realize what items are usable by a Paladin, ilvl 200 or higher, epic, and have BV but no BR? After eliminating slot redundancies, there are three:

Every other piece that you put on, you're just trading avoidance or TPS for BR. Pretty soon, you'll be capped and more BR won't do you a lick of good. Even ignoring that, are you seriously going to trade Spiked Deathdealers for Greaves of the Stonewarder? The fact is that BV gear tends to have horrible itemization, and even with the change I'm not seeing it as viable for serious bosses.
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:57 am

The BV change is fairly anemic. Most paladin tanks gear for avoidance/stam, and as such won't see much difference. I have exactly 0 +BV from gear, if you ignore the Libram. So in that sense, the ShoR nerf is a flat-out nerf. Whether the SoV change will compensate for it is yet to be seen.

As an aside, I suspect that the Vezax libram will be buffed, since it doesn't have a distinct uptime like LoO.

I don't think this change was solely aimed at making Block Value items worth taking, I think they intended to improve Block in general for Ulduar encounters. Unfortunately, this wasn't the way to successfully do it. If they boosted the BV contribution from STR, that would work somewhat.

If it was intended solely to make those BV items worth taking, this still wasn't the way to do it. The problem is in the itemization. They need more pieces that have only BV and 0 Block Rating. The fact that the two are coupled is the real problem. It's fine for Warriors, but it's useless for us.

I'd rather see a revamp where BV and BR are merged into a single Block Rating stat. Each point of this new stat would give 1 Block Value and 0.05% Block Rating. Numbers pulled out of thin air of course, but at least this way we'd never have to "waste" itemization points on a useless stat - it would always give us something.
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby Lave » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:10 am

hum i have 97% avoidance+block in my current ulduar set (both craftables etc, pretty standart)
so i wouldnt mind 1 or 2 bv items that also have br at all.. but i agree that there are far to few
"bv but no br" items
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby Awyndel » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:41 am

Tomyris wrote:Do you realize what items are usable by a Paladin, ilvl 200 or higher, epic, and have BV but no BR? After eliminating slot redundancies, there are three:

Every other piece that you put on, you're just trading avoidance or TPS for BR. Pretty soon, you'll be capped and more BR won't do you a lick of good. Even ignoring that, are you seriously going to trade Spiked Deathdealers for Greaves of the Stonewarder? The fact is that BV gear tends to have horrible itemization, and even with the change I'm not seeing it as viable for serious bosses.


Yeah this. Was very disapointed when I found this out when they launched 3.1. All 3 have a nice place in my dps tanking set though :)

Yeah I really wonder if stacking block value is gonna be viable for any of the encounters in ulduar.
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby steadypal » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:19 pm

shoulda just made it

1 str = 1 bv


and do away with all plate gear with block value on it, BR to for that matter, WTB plate with heavy avoidance and high str,, then us plate tanks wont QQ about poorly itemized gear, win win for all, even DK's
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Re: Double Block Value? Not so great as it sounds?

Postby Rdx » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:39 pm

theckhd wrote: I have exactly 0 +BV from gear, if you ignore the Libram. So in that sense, the ShoR nerf is a flat-out nerf. Whether the SoV change will compensate for it is yet to be seen.

Same boat here. Tho I do have every part of that gear listed else where sitting in my bank. Even with the change, I loose a lot subbing it in.

theckhd wrote:As an aside, I suspect that the Vezax libram will be buffed, since it doesn't have a distinct uptime like LoO.

This is my current libram and it does look like its just been over looked.

IMO over all it is a nerf to threat. Even with the changes to SoV I doubt it will make up for the loss on SotR. While it does make Seals of the Pure (SotP???) more attractive I doubt it will be worth specing into it.
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