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Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby majiben » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:26 pm

No melee dps should run without the maximum speed boost they have. On any fight with even the least movement an extra swing from closing a distance faster is a huge dps boost.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Dalithe » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:09 am

Not sure dropping Pursuit of Justice is a good idea for any melee especially in movement critical places like Ulduar. Last patch the rets in guild said something like 13 points extra for random utility talents. One of them picked up "Divine Cockblock" as he calls it because it severly hampers his dps due to managing bubble (-50% damage) and the forbearance debuff etc. The other paladin I was not able to trick into getting it.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Modal » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:15 am

baneoftruth wrote:So we're either gaining or breaking even on ShotR damage, and gaining on SoV/SoC.


1. I don't know about you, but I have exactly 1 item with BV on it. My ShotR damage will be going down.

2. We don't know about seal damage until we know how the numbers work. SoV coefficients are going to have to get nerfed, or it's going to be way too strong. As of now, it's not even clear whether we'll still be using SoV to tank.

There is no way to know, yet, how our TPS is going to change.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Vedge » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:22 am

Modal wrote:As of now, it's not even clear whether we'll still be using SoV to tank.

There is no way to know, yet, how our TPS is going to change.



quoting blue post
We are buffing Seal of Vengeance / Corruption and redesigning Seal of Command with the expectation that these are now the seals of choice for PvP and PvE. Righteousness can remain a tanking seal.


Remain? we weren't using it since we got Corruption. Or am i missing something? Could it mean they want us to use SoR again?
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Elsie » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:15 am

Majiben wrote:No melee dps should run without the maximum speed boost they have. On any fight with even the least movement an extra swing from closing a distance faster is a huge dps boost.

I'd take Divine Sacrifice over 8% run speed any day. Just saying... saving a raid wipe or making a cleaner kill is a huge raid success boost. It's not unlike a druid not using the IS glyph.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Tomyris » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:35 am

Vedge wrote:Remain? we weren't using it since we got Corruption. Or am i missing something? Could it mean they want us to use SoR again?

That's Modal's point, of course. There's a lot that's up in the air, and this entire thread is pretty premature without any hard numbers.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Jazmine » Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:49 pm

The changes should be better for us because this is currently how our threat is:

So-so tps... then BOOM tps spike from shield slam. So technically it still avgs out to be better than the other tank classes. But when you get more ulduar gear, I've noticed many tanks suffer from having low hit rating (around 100s). This is bad because we rely on our shield slams to be our threat boost.

The changes smooths out the tps from our abilities, so if we do happen to miss a slam, the other threat moves we can do will still make up for it.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Spite » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:39 am

Jazmine wrote:The changes should be better for us because this is currently how our threat is:

So-so tps... then BOOM tps spike from shield slam. So technically it still avgs out to be better than the other tank classes. But when you get more ulduar gear, I've noticed many tanks suffer from having low hit rating (around 100s). This is bad because we rely on our shield slams to be our threat boost.

The changes smooths out the tps from our abilities, so if we do happen to miss a slam, the other threat moves we can do will still make up for it.


I have all ulduar gear and Im sitting at 275 hit rating without a hit trinket or enchant (besides my weapon) Im not sure where your gathering your info from. Alot of tank gear in ulduar has hit on it.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby majiben » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:36 am

Elsie wrote:
Majiben wrote:No melee dps should run without the maximum speed boost they have. On any fight with even the least movement an extra swing from closing a distance faster is a huge dps boost.

I'd take Divine Sacrifice over 8% run speed any day. Just saying... saving a raid wipe or making a cleaner kill is a huge raid success boost. It's not unlike a druid not using the IS glyph.
No reason why you can't have both unless you are insistent on taking 2/2 vindication and even then you drop points out of raid buff talents depending on your raid composition.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Kvaern » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:00 pm

Varmin wrote:
Jasari wrote:Most people have little to no +BV on their MT set so ShoR will probably decrease.

Also we'll probably be losing 2% crit in favor of the -AP debuff.

However, the SoV buff might be enough to negate the other two.

Either, I can't imagine the change being game breaking, if even noticeable.


If you run with any rets you won't have to grab vindication.
I think the SoV buff will more than make up for the ShoR nerf.


Why would you rely on others who may or may not be present to pick up an obvious tanking talent which you easily can pick up yourself?

Especially considering said ret may not even be DPS'ing your target(s) for periods of time even if he is present.

Vindication certainly isn't going to be part of my 3.2 ret build but it will be in my prot build for sure.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Kvaern » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:11 pm

Elsie wrote:
Majiben wrote:No melee dps should run without the maximum speed boost they have. On any fight with even the least movement an extra swing from closing a distance faster is a huge dps boost.

I'd take Divine Sacrifice over 8% run speed any day. Just saying... saving a raid wipe or making a cleaner kill is a huge raid success boost. It's not unlike a druid not using the IS glyph.


I have DS in my 3.1 ret build and I love it.....but your main role as DPS isn't to save to the raid but to ensure the boss dies before he enrages, or shatters his rare cache of goodly items, which means I would never sacrifice DPS for utility in my main ret build.

If a fight really needs DS then holy paladins should be the first to spec into it imo.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Venoseth » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:36 pm

Your main role (as any role) is to succeed. If that takes raiders who are meant to be "DPSing" helping mitigate damage, you do it.

All our rets run in a rotation w/ our priests to heal through/reduce the post-heart-broken tantrums on XT, for example.

You get it done as a team, that's all that matters, IMO.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:42 pm

This whole role thing is going to be pretty subjective with no real right answer. It gets debated about in many ways in many threads and is never solved because it's going to be a matter that can only be best answered by each individual guild. From CC to interrupts to cooldowns, there's lots of utility provided by classes in multiple roles, but it's going to be dependent on raid composition and style more than anything else.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Kvaern » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:50 pm

Venoseth wrote:Your main role (as any role) is to succeed. If that takes raiders who are meant to be "DPSing" helping mitigate damage, you do it.

All our rets run in a rotation w/ our priests to heal through/reduce the post-heart-broken tantrums on XT, for example.

You get it done as a team, that's all that matters, IMO.



What your rets are currently doing is irrelevant as DS is available at no DPS cost in 3.1 but if given a choice between DS or a talent which adds DPS there will be no competition.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Venoseth » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:15 pm

Kvaern wrote:
Venoseth wrote:Your main role (as any role) is to succeed. If that takes raiders who are meant to be "DPSing" helping mitigate damage, you do it.

All our rets run in a rotation w/ our priests to heal through/reduce the post-heart-broken tantrums on XT, for example.

You get it done as a team, that's all that matters, IMO.



What your rets are currently doing is irrelevant as DS is available at no DPS cost in 3.1 but if given a choice between DS or a talent which adds DPS there will be no competition.


Wouldn't that depend on the fight? For example, if you could reduce the number of healers you need for a hard-mode fight by running 3 Rets who lose 5%~ damage each(that'd be strong, in terms of talent contribution). The extra DPS that you gain in a situation like that out-weighs the other members individual contribution.

Guild DPS comes before personal DPS, anyway.



On Topic:
Thinking of the quote about how the redesign to Hand of Taunt (and our T9 2p) is supposed to help make up for lack of exorcism. Anyone have some first-hand experience to say if this is something that we'll get to take decent advantage of? I assume that it doesn't work on taunt-immune mobs and won't work in PvP (altho' that sounds like a good way of forcing someone to watch the "tank" character in PvP: Everyone you target needs to target you to avoid a reprecussion).

Also, has anyone else noticed that HoReckoning will do damage through Banish (on Elementals in Vezax's trash room, for example)? IIRC the mob doesn't target you, even after taunting, does this mean that someone could banish them, and you would be able to do big damage hits (on a reduced CD w/ the T9 2p) from HoReckoning off of the GCD at will? Nice. :D
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