Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Soralin » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:01 pm

Venoseth wrote:Also, has anyone else noticed that HoReckoning will do damage through Banish (on Elementals in Vezax's trash room, for example)? IIRC the mob doesn't target you, even after taunting, does this mean that someone could banish them, and you would be able to do big damage hits (on a reduced CD w/ the T9 2p) from HoReckoning off of the GCD at will? Nice. :D

What makes you think this? Unless I'm mistaken, currently on live when taunting a banished mob the taunt/fixate effect is applied however the banished mob is still "immune" to damage. I see no reason this would be changed with the redesign of HoR.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby majiben » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:23 pm

Actually when HoR was usable on players it could be used through a bubbling paladin to interrupt their hearth stone so this sort of behavior is not entirely ridiculous.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Dalithe » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:36 am

Not even going to try and quote. But I did want to say that when anything is banished and you use HoR on them they are not Immune to damage and you will hit them for a whopping 81 damage as well as get your taunt effect.

As for 3.2 I don't know but I expect they will overlook it at first (as they have now) and fix it eventually.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Amaranthea » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:57 am

Majiben wrote:Actually when HoR was usable on players it could be used through a bubbling paladin to interrupt their hearth stone so this sort of behavior is not entirely ridiculous.


I actually got a KB with Hand of Reckoning in an arena match on a bubbled paladin who had <100 hp.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Macktruck » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:36 am

Nadir wrote:Raiding Rets also have the option of dropping Pursuit of Justice for Vindication, while maintaining Improved Blessing of Might and Divine Guardian. If SotP becomes mandatory for DPS then they would still be able to pick up Divine Sacrifice.


Never going to drop PoJ out of any ret or prot spec. It's too much of a dps loss.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Funtodin » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:17 pm

I tested with my usual main tanking gear, my white swings + seal of vengeance alone jumped from 440 dps contribution to 650 dps over 30 minutes of testing. It seems decent enough, but from the numbers I saw, I'd guess expertise will play a much bigger role in our threat now, seeing I only missed 0.2% but between parry and dodge I failed to connect 14% of my swings, losing those seal procs (ranging from ~300 to 700 on crits).
The testing was done without the seal of vengeance glyph btw. I want to run it again with it and check the benefit from those 10 extra expertise points.
My first impression is that overall our threat will be just as good but less bursty.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Wardari » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:58 pm

Nadir wrote:Raiding Rets also have the option of dropping Pursuit of Justice for Vindication, while maintaining Improved Blessing of Might and Divine Guardian. If SotP becomes mandatory for DPS then they would still be able to pick up Divine Sacrifice.


I don't honestly see this happening, PoJ is just as good for retribution as it is for protadins as faster run speeds means three things:

-faster run speed to move from target to target, or running back in after an AOE like shockblast on mimiron, helping to maximise their DPS time.
-Make running back in and out or moving into effects like snowdrift to protect against flash freeze, this kind of links back to my first point of maximising DPS time, but this second point is from the survivability stand point where you simply can be left having to move away from 5-6 different things if the RNG decides to kick your ass.
-Not needing tuskuar's vitality (for the above two reasons) leaves room for a better enchant to increase DPS, plus IIRC PoJ is superior to Tuskuar's by a full 7% extra movement speed. (tuskuar's being 8%, PoJ being 15%).

For the sake of two talent points it's too good to be left out.

I foresee rets going with this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... sion=10116

They do have the spare point and could remove the one from Divine Guardian to take 2/2 Vindication but I honestly don't see it happening, Divine Guardian is perfect for Retribution, it gives them a little more utility in raids and for the sake of 1 point (okay a little more right now as they usually go for improved too) who can blame them?

Also with Vindication being applied by ALL damaging attacks, things like HotR will apply this debuff to multiple targets so i'll certainly be taking it in my tanking build.

I'll likely be looking at something along these lines should Reakoning turn out to be a significant TPS increase in 3.2:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... sion=10116

This is obviously dependant on a lot of things though:

-If 5/5 reakoning is superior to Crusade then i'll drop two points from that to max out reakoning.
-If reakoning turns out to be inferior i'll be putting the points back into Crusade, dropping reakoning and probably putting my extra 3 points back into Divine Sacrifice - shame you can't get to the tiers beyond tier 5 without spending those 3 extra points in prot, otherwise i'd put them into SotP :D
-Also the option of SotP over Crusade, but I remember reading a post I think from Theck that suggested unless the TPS increase of the new SoV was vastly increased it still wouldn't trump the 3% overall from Crusade, but I guess the jury is still out on this one too :)

A lot of if, ands and buts in my builds as i'm still waiting to see the numbers on reakoning and SoV before I make my final decision - not to mention everything on the PTR is always subject to change. I'm really just mulling over a few ideas right now, giving myself options to choose from in different situations :)
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Nadir » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:36 am

Look over your guild's raid logs and tell me if a fully talented Demoralizing Shout equivalent has a 98%+ up time. I don't think everyone understands how powerful this ability is for tanking hard modes since we've been deprived of it for years. Retribution and Protection arguably have the easiest and most consistent method of applying it. It doesn't really matter if you lose 1 second of DPS time on Algalon because you can't charge like Feral and Warrior. It does matter if can keep the boss from pushing your tank's shit in. You argue for the raid utility of Divine Sacrifice, which I agree with. However the build you linked has one free point. You can't get 2/2 Divine Guardian. I personally am going to take one point out of PoJ (I think I'll manage with only 8% movement speed) and put two points into Vindication for 5/11/55.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Wardari » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:37 am

Nadir wrote:Look over your guild's raid logs and tell me if a fully talented Demoralizing Shout equivalent has a 98%+ up time. I don't think everyone understands how powerful this ability is for tanking hard modes since we've been deprived of it for years. Retribution and Protection arguably have the easiest and most consistent method of applying it. It doesn't really matter if you lose 1 second of DPS time on Algalon because you can't charge like Feral and Warrior. It does matter if can keep the boss from pushing your tank's shit in. You argue for the raid utility of Divine Sacrifice, which I agree with. However the build you linked has one free point. You can't get 2/2 Divine Guardian. I personally am going to take one point out of PoJ (I think I'll manage with only 8% movement speed) and put two points into Vindication for 5/11/55.


Well each to their own I guess, I certainly don't mind taking Vindication instead of our rets mainly because if i'm there i've got the debuff myself, if our ret can't make it I lose a debuff. You could argue I could respec in that case, but the 2% crit loss isn't something I'm too bothered about as my threat generation is already far superior to our other tanks - i'm personally happy enough taking it in my regular prot build.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Dalithe » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:36 am

I will certainly have Vindication and will probably drop some crit to obtain it. Atm I do not have PoJ or speed enchant on my boots and have not noticed nor wished that I had it (except running through BT when collecting T6). I have pretty good kneejerk reactions to run from stuff that "tastes like burning" despite my MS.

With the top two damaging abilities from my combat logs being ShoR and Melee I expect that either threat will break through even or be a slight increase. Certainly Hit and Expertise will become far more important for us then.

Also gotta consider than most Progession tank gear has zero block value on it at all, perhaps we won't see a drop in TPS but a slight decrease in DPS?
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Noradin » Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:20 pm

Dalithe wrote:Also gotta consider than most Progession tank gear has zero block value on it at all, perhaps we won't see a drop in TPS but a slight decrease in DPS?


I don't think we will see any abilities that "deal a high amount of threat" again any time soon.

Right now our TPS is directly proportional to our DPS - the only other way to change TPS while keeping DPS constant is to shift some of the damage from physical to holy or the other way around.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Soldierxx » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:04 am

Now that all the changes are announced for 3.2, how much of an increase in TPS will i see in Ulduar if i use exactly the same spec? 5 conviction, 3 crusade.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Venoseth » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:59 pm

This topic has useful information, but a lot of the questions that are being raised are already answered in Theck's MATLAB thread, which I highly recommend (like that Reckoning + SotP is about as good as 5V+3C on non-Crusade friendly targets, but not as good on targets it's friendly to, or DUHs as Theck now calls 'em).

Here.

and here.

...the highlights.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:40 pm

I'm glad I maintain several gear sets, including a set that has copious amounts of BV on every piece.
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