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Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Soldierxx » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:10 pm

Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:19 pm

It'll either be an increase, or break even.
1. SBV from items is doubling, but bonus on ShotR is going from 130% to 100%
2. SoV/SoC now does more damage on swings once a 5-stack is established, and this added damage can crit for double damage
3. Exorcism is still usable, but only on pulls and while at range/kiting (which is where it should have been used anyway...)

So we're either gaining or breaking even on ShotR damage, and gaining on SoV/SoC.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Jasari » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:24 pm

Most people have little to no +BV on their MT set so ShoR will probably decrease.

Also we'll probably be losing 2% crit in favor of the -AP debuff.

However, the SoV buff might be enough to negate the other two.

Either, I can't imagine the change being game breaking, if even noticeable.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:32 pm

@Jasari: Do you forsee dropping Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian for 3 points in Reckoning with the SoV/SoC changes?
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Jasari » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:08 pm

baneoftruth wrote:@Jasari: Do you forsee dropping Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian for 3 points in Reckoning with the SoV/SoC changes?
--> http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0xA0uGusIufdxfMh0h


Not unless threat becomes a major issue. Divine Sacrifice is too powerful on things like Mimiron P2 for me to give it up without a fight.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Varmin » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:26 am

Jasari wrote:Most people have little to no +BV on their MT set so ShoR will probably decrease.

Also we'll probably be losing 2% crit in favor of the -AP debuff.

However, the SoV buff might be enough to negate the other two.

Either, I can't imagine the change being game breaking, if even noticeable.


If you run with any rets you won't have to grab vindication.
I think the SoV buff will more than make up for the ShoR nerf.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby QuantumDelta » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:37 am

Jasari wrote:
baneoftruth wrote:@Jasari: Do you forsee dropping Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian for 3 points in Reckoning with the SoV/SoC changes?
--> http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0xA0uGusIufdxfMh0h


Not unless threat becomes a major issue. Divine Sacrifice is too powerful on things like Mimiron P2 for me to give it up without a fight.

You can respec for /one/ hardmode ;p
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Wingi » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:48 am

baneoftruth wrote:@Jasari: Do you forsee dropping Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian for 3 points in Reckoning with the SoV/SoC changes?
--> http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0xA0uGusIufdxfMh0h


Hi, just getting a little off-topic here : why would you get SoBattle over Crusade ? especially since exorcism is out of our threat rotation ?
Has it something to to with SoCorruption being able to crit now ?

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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Tomyris » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:05 am

baneoftruth wrote:@Jasari: Do you forsee dropping Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian for 3 points in Reckoning with the SoV/SoC changes?
--> http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0xA0uGusIufdxfMh0h

Read the sticky at the top of this forum. It has many gems, including this post:

theckhd wrote:TLDR summary:
  • Sanctity of Battle's worth varies depending on the Seal you use.
    • For SoV, SancBat is equivalent to Conviction.
    • For SoB, it's almost as good as Crusade (but not quite).
  • Crusade is strictly better than Sanctity of Battle in all cases.

Sort of premature to toss specs around without going over simple data like those. If Sanctity of Battle was bad with Seal of Blood, it will be worse with the newfangled SoV and a 1.5 sec cast Exo. We'll also have to revisit SotP, but that's not something I'd feel comfortable comparing with Crusade or Reck on the basis of my napkin math.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Serv » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:26 am

I'm more concerned about the fact, that SoV now deals damage in a way Righteousness does and therefore is linked to expertise. If the whitehit is parried or dodged there won't be any seal damage.
I don't know if the incresed seal dps covers this fact or if we need to take 5 points in SotP/Reckoning or both, to cover up if there's a loss in TPS.
Besides that, taking SotP and Reckoning gives us only 1 point for Vindication.

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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Tomyris » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:49 am

Serv wrote:I'm more concerned about the fact, that SoV now deals damage in a way Righteousness does and therefore is linked to expertise. If the whitehit is parried or dodged there won't be any seal damage.
I don't know if the incresed seal dps covers this fact or if we need to take 5 points in SotP/Reckoning or both, to cover up if there's a loss in TPS.
Besides that, taking SotP and Reckoning gives us only 1 point for Vindication.

SoR scales from AP and SP, whereas the new SoV mechanic scales with weapon damage like SoB. If we can rely on Theck's previous work on SoB as a set of guidelines for approaching these changes, we can generate a few preliminary hypotheses. Among these, certainly, is that fact that expertise becomes a far more valuable stat for TPS.

Most importantly in terms of preparing for 3.2, the new SoV should scale best with a slow weapon. Reckoning exaggerates this even further. Even if the TPS difference between Reckoning/Crusade/SotP is close, a slow weapon could make Reckoning pull ahead in the comparison. The bottom line is that Vulmir, the Northern Tempest and Broken Promise seem likely to trump other weapons (with the possible exception of Sorthalis, Hammer of the Watchers).

For the highest TPS talent spec, I won't kid myself into thinking that I can do any better than waiting for Theck's analysis. He's said in another thread that he'll run the numbers once we've got something solid to work with.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Jasari » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:03 am

QuantumDelta wrote:
Jasari wrote:
baneoftruth wrote:@Jasari: Do you forsee dropping Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian for 3 points in Reckoning with the SoV/SoC changes?
--> http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0xA0uGusIufdxfMh0h


Not unless threat becomes a major issue. Divine Sacrifice is too powerful on things like Mimiron P2 for me to give it up without a fight.

You can respec for /one/ hardmode ;p


I said like for a reason. I also use it when the other tank taunts Razorscale or Thorim. Or during exploding flowers on Freya. It's also useful during tantrum on XT or during Yogg-Saron P2. Mimiron is just the most iconic example because it's ridiculously OP in that situation.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:43 am

Varmin wrote:If you run with any rets you won't have to grab vindication.
I think the SoV buff will more than make up for the ShoR nerf.

I'm fairly certain that most rets don't grab Vindication currently because it's useless on bosses. I don't expect this to change with the patch, unless they suddenly have more points to throw around. There's a lot of good utility in Prot for them to grab already, especially if going for DS/DG.

It's way too early to tell, but my initial guess is that our threat will decrease slightly in heavy avoidance/stam gear. A more balanced gear set that uses a few BV pieces (4+ T8 for example) will probably break even, and our threat will be stupidly good in BV gear at the cost of survivability.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Tomyris » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:58 pm

theckhd wrote:
Varmin wrote:If you run with any rets you won't have to grab vindication.
I think the SoV buff will more than make up for the ShoR nerf.

I'm fairly certain that most rets don't grab Vindication currently because it's useless on bosses. I don't expect this to change with the patch, unless they suddenly have more points to throw around. There's a lot of good utility in Prot for them to grab already, especially if going for DS/DG.

Ret can get Vindication by dropping either DS/DG or Imp BoM. Convincing them to switch will likely depend on how your Holy Pallies spec, although the Seal changes could wind up pushing Ret into SotP as it is. That would probably kill DS/DG specs, leaving Ret in generally awkward position.
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Re: Are the new changes going to be an overall TPS increase?

Postby Nadir » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:14 pm

Raiding Rets also have the option of dropping Pursuit of Justice for Vindication, while maintaining Improved Blessing of Might and Divine Guardian. If SotP becomes mandatory for DPS then they would still be able to pick up Divine Sacrifice.
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