3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

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3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:15 pm

EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that information I previously had on weaving Exorcism into the rotation was incorrect...please disregard this thread, unless you've been replacing HotR with Exorcism too....

First off, I'm aware that these patch notes are not definite, but they are the current released information and if they come to fruition I'd like to be prepared as far ahead of time as possible.

Exorcism: Now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can once again be used on players.

Well, I guess this means that Exorcism is now out of the standard 969 rotation. Previously, it had replaced HotR when it was available, but the 1.5 second cast time (guessing here) would likely cause a threat loss instead of a threat gain, as it would push everything back on the time scale :-/

I'd be interested to see one of our local matlab experts run the numbers on this, but I have a feeling that the match will match my guess, making Exorcism good for opening/ranged threat and for tanking casters.

The patch notes also made a change to block value, so perhaps the threat gained from that change will cover the loss of Exorcism?

Thoughts?
Last edited by baneoftruth on Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby Panzerdin » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:20 pm

We never used it in the past, and we still don't use it. What's not to like?
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:22 pm

Panzerdin wrote:We never used it in the past, and we still don't use it. What's not to like?

You never used Exorcism???
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby Panzerdin » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:22 pm

No, should I have?
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby Jasari » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:29 pm

It was never part of that standard 969 rotation.

At times it could be a slight DPS increase to use it in place of judgement, but for a number of reasons that was usually not a good idea.

You can't real use spells with cast times when tanking due to spell push back and the fact that you can't avoid attacks while you're casting.
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:33 pm

Panzerdin wrote:No, should I have?

I want to say yes, but I can't find the thread which had the math behind weaving AS and Exorcism in for HotR when the spells were available.

Jasari wrote:You can't real use spells with cast times when tanking due to spell push back and the fact that you can't avoid attacks while you're casting.

Well that's why you wouldn't want to use it once it has a cast time...although I do recall perfectly timing AS between boss swings back in TBC :-p But seriously, the cast time would mess up the 969, as I mentioned.
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby toothdecaykills » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:46 pm

baneoftruth wrote:
Panzerdin wrote:No, should I have?

I want to say yes, but I can't find the thread which had the math behind weaving AS and Exorcism in for HotR when the spells were available.


I basically just used it as a quick and dirty ranged 'tag' for any incoming mobs, like in Thorim's event, or when too much trash was accidentally pulled. It was also a strong single target pulling tool, though, to be honest, the change to Hand of Reckoning just kind of alters how I pull, not how successful it is. I only ever subbed it into my rotation when mobility would have wasted a Concie, or the boss charges. You can count how many fights this might matter without using your toes.

Jasari wrote:You can't real use spells with cast times when tanking due to spell push back and the fact that you can't avoid attacks while you're casting.

Well that's why you wouldn't want to use it once it has a cast time...although I do recall perfectly timing AS between boss swings back in TBC :-p But seriously, the cast time would mess up the 969, as I mentioned.[/quote]

I don't see how it would. Technically, with a 1.5 second cast, Exorcism wouldn't fuck up your 969 at all since its the same length as a GCD...as long as you aren't hit of course. Why you'd want to open yourself up for an incoming hit (and risk pushing back the attack) is beyond me, but technically, with a Holy's Improved Conc aura and and Earth Shield, I think you'd be pretty much immune to pushback. Again, why you'd risk this is beyond me.
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby Invisusira » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:52 pm

Exorcism was never part of the standard 6969 rotation.

The math behind it showed that you will do more threat with a Judgement or Consecration. The only viable place to use Exorcism was in place of Holy Shield in situations where you out-geared content and it was ok to go under block cap from time to time or in situations where you're at a distance, like training General.
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby Petrus » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:55 pm

I only really used it in Naxx or on Undead targets where it autocrit.

I'm mostly curious about the SoV change - is it just me or is this going to send our threat through the roof?
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby Macktruck » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:57 pm

Only times I ever used Exorcism in a rotation is pulling or if I'm at range/running back to boss (Mimiron).

And most of the times you'd use Exorcism to pull was coupled with HoR. Though sometimes, like on Emalon, I'd HoR an add, Exoricse another, Avenger's Shield a back one, run in, and hammer them all. Now, it really doesn't change pulling strategies. I think it in fact helps.

The change to HoR means that when you taunt, you do actual dmg to it and reduces the chance that it's gonna go to somebody else. Like on Thorim and Unbalancing Strike. Or running a Guardian to Sara.
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:58 pm

Invisusira wrote:Exorcism was never part of the standard 6969 rotation.

The math behind it showed that you will do more threat with a Judgement or Consecration. The only viable place to use Exorcism was in place of Holy Shield in situations where you out-geared content and it was ok to go under block cap from time to time or in situations where you're at a distance, like training General.

Hoo boy...I must've been some sort of drunk or stupid when I thought I read about using Exorcism over HotR....Kinda doubting my prot pally credentials right this moment :*(

Thanks for correcting my mistake on this one. You know you're wrong when Jasari & Invisusira step in to correct you, lol :-)
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:19 pm

It's possible that kind of conclusion was come to for undead/demon targets in early WotLK beta discussion, before HotR buffs. But that would be very old information that never even went live.
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:23 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:It's possible that kind of conclusion was come to in early WotLK beta discussion, before HotR buffs. But that would be very old information that never even went live.

That would make sense...

What about AS? (attempting to locate the info on it in Thecks matlab thread right now, not just waiting on an answer)\
Edit: got my answer....viewtopic.php?p=441091#p441091
Thank you 3.2 for making me open my mouth, heh...
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Re: 3.2, Exorcism cast time and 969

Postby theckhd » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:02 pm

Invisusira wrote:The math behind it showed that you will do more threat with a Judgement or Consecration. The only viable place to use Exorcism was in place of Holy Shield in situations where you out-geared content and it was ok to go under block cap from time to time or in situations where you're at a distance, like training General.

Not entirely true. From the post that baneoftruth just linked to:
Theck wrote:If you're some sort of Ret subspec:
  • If you use 1 threat glyph, go with the Vengeance glyph. Substituting Exorcism will give you 55 TPS, AS will give you 35 TPS. Again, the only exception is if you want to glyph AS, in which case you get ~115 TPS from JsA.


My recommendation was still to save it for when you're at range, and stick to standard 969 though.

In any event, once we have exact formulas for the new abilities, I'll be running several simulations to answer all of the questions people have about how this patch changes things.
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