Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Threatco » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:46 am

As a raid leader I find warrior tanks the least useful of the 3.

Yes 3, I haven't seen any bears in ages.
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby cougbait » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:35 am

it all depends on the fight, like i love having our warrior tank the head in in phase 3 of mimiron with his spell reflect while i pick up the trash and use my 5% above unhittable to my benefit, while for IC i tank SC for self cleanses and for almost anything with adds as a "these must be picked up asap or wipe" is left to me or the DK as we have alot better spells to pick up adds from healers
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby PsiVen » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:20 pm

Majiben wrote:
Jasari wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:But what do you gain by kiting?


10 seconds of zero DTPS and the option of using available mitigation CDs at other times during the fight rather than only for surges.

Ah but that 0 DTPS is not nearly as valuable as you would think and here's why:

Your healers will still be healing at the beginning and end of the of the surge reducing the time that the healers aren't healing to 7-8 seconds. Additionally dps during the kiting and threat can drop. When looking at the gains this way the gains are rather minimal for the risks.


No offense, but if your healers are healing proactively and getting many full overheals, they're doing it wrong. It's more than ten seconds, as you run out during the cast and he runs to you after the kiting is done. So you end up with about 15 seconds of zero damage, and gain cooldowns you'd be using. Say that's IBF for 12 seconds of 40% each phase, you effectively take (33 + 12*.6) / 60 = 67% of the damage you take if you eat surges in the face and cooldown it to normal damage.

That's not to say you necessarily want to kite. We don't in 25 for hardmode, because it complicates things too much for the ranged. Healer mana is a problem, but not a big enough one. In 10-man we kited while learning and it helped more than it complicated things.
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby trellian » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:14 am

Threatco wrote:I am thinking something like take 8 stacks and shield wall (50% damage reduction) so you don't get one shot. Would you still get full mana?


The mana you gain is in direct relation to the damage you take. If you shieldwall, you take 50% less damage, which results in 50% less mana gained.

A nice trick for holy priests though is to put wings on themselves. This allows them to regen to 100% mana easily.
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby jere » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:02 am

I actually had trouble kiting him in 10 man. As soon as I saw the cast time, I started strafing off (I was going full speed, not backing), and he kept up with me the whole time. He only took a few seconds to cast, so subtract off the time it takes me to realize it and start running, I only really got a second or two head start, but when came running he stayed right with me. Do you have to slow him manually to kite? I thought it was automatic. We ended up just rotating cooldowns, but I am curious as to why kiting didn't work.
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:07 am

Surge of Darkness automatically slows him as part of the effect, http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=62662 If he kept up with you, he may have been bugged in some way. Was he still hitting for the increased damage?
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Jasari » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:25 am

For kiting, I recommend turning your camera around so that you're basically looking at the inside of the boss's ass while you're tanking. Then as soon as you see him start casting push both mouse buttons to start booking it away from him. He's slowed but if you without a movement speed enchant he'll be able to hit you if you don't start running immediately after he starts casting. From personal experience though, it is very much possible to not take a hit from him even if you're not spec'd into PoJ and have no movement speed enchants. High latency will hurt you though.
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Kelaan » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:12 pm

Conversely, you can just start strafing directly away from him?
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby jere » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:53 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Surge of Darkness automatically slows him as part of the effect, http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=62662 If he kept up with you, he may have been bugged in some way. Was he still hitting for the increased damage?


Yep, on the order of 32k roughly. We tried it a couple times. When the cooldown was ready to be up, I hovered over the strafe key (my first couple of attempts, I used my nostromo strafe, but decided to try the keyboard strafe incase I was hitting an odd direction by accident), and as soon as I saw a cast bar, I pressed and held it, his cast seemed pretty fast on my end though, so not long after I started booking it, he started running. He stayed with me the whole way. If he was slowed at all, I would have expected to at least start gaining some distance on him visually, but didn't see any changes in his relative position to me at all.
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:57 pm

Wierd, when we were first learning him I'd get too far away and he'd target me with some of the abilities that were to be aimed at ranged only folks. We've since moved to the no kiting strat and like that much better so I haven't tried it lately. I definitely ran faster than him with no buffs aside from PoJ.
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby jere » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:08 pm

Well, I don't have PoJ, so that might be why I am not seeing quick changes. It could also be a function of my latency. I wasn't watching it last night, but it usually claims to be between 90 and 250 depending on the night. It just seemed odd. Everyone in our group was like...isn't he supposed to slow down or something.
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Levantine » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:15 am

jere wrote:Well, I don't have PoJ, so that might be why I am not seeing quick changes. It could also be a function of my latency. I wasn't watching it last night, but it usually claims to be between 90 and 250 depending on the night. It just seemed odd. Everyone in our group was like...isn't he supposed to slow down or something.


This is entirely possible. I know I have serious issues trying to kite anything like General or Anub'Rekhan because of laggggggg. Australian ms ftl. D:
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Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby jere » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:22 am

Well I don't experience any lag per say. Everything seems pretty smooth on my end, but my latency may not show the hidden issue.
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