Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:53 pm

Jasari wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
QuantumDelta wrote:Yea, what?
Verax is fine, people who don't wanna kite are just bad, it has more benefits than negatives too if you do it properly -.-
It doesn't bother the ranged dps at all either (unless they're above 110% threat) :<
never ever understood the cries about verax, he's fine for everyone.

How does it have more benefits. We find the non kiting method to be tons easier.


I think both strategies have their pros and cons. I definitely don't agree with the "people who don't kite are just bad" argument.

The bottom line is that people should do whatever works best for their guild. For my guild, until recently, that was the don't-kite method. Now I prefer kiting every other surge.

But what do you gain by kiting?
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Jasari » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:55 pm

Fridmarr wrote:But what do you gain by kiting?


10 seconds of zero DTPS and the option of using available mitigation CDs at other times during the fight rather than only for surges.
User avatar
Jasari
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Nadir » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:51 am

I think the different opinions on kite vs stationary surge strategies come from what you're doing. For normal mode on 25 or 10 man, it really doesn't matter. I'm sure you could kite Animus along with Vezax in 10 man if you really couldn't find a DK to place tank it. I don't know of a guild that kites Vezax in 25 man hard mode.

Speaking of which, has a Paladin successfully tanked Vezax 25 man hard mode?
Image
Nadir
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 8:37 am

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby majiben » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:27 am

Jasari wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:But what do you gain by kiting?


10 seconds of zero DTPS and the option of using available mitigation CDs at other times during the fight rather than only for surges.

Ah but that 0 DTPS is not nearly as valuable as you would think and here's why:

Your healers will still be healing at the beginning and end of the of the surge reducing the time that the healers aren't healing to 7-8 seconds. Additionally dps during the kiting and threat can drop. When looking at the gains this way the gains are rather minimal for the risks.
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Corpsicle » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:56 am

On ten man, normal mode we've never won a fight not kiting, with our DK tanking. We had all kinds of issues with it - interrupts seemed harder, healing was harder, he'd get low and even with three healers we'd lose him and just not get him topped off. We went from that to having me kite and our Shadow Priest go disc, and we've managed to get it. Since the first initial win, the priest went back to shadow and we still one shot it last week using only two healers.

How much of that is due to me healing while DK was tanking and how much of that was our DK being great at interrupts while he is DPS and not worried about TPS? The group synergy changes based on who is tanking, who is dpsing, who is healing. For our group it clearly is better to kite with me tanking - we still handily beat the enrage timer and our 2 healers are getting good enough at managing mana that they are starting to end the fight with extra mana.

For other groups that say it is 'way easier' to stand and not kite, then clearly that is the best strategy for them. I'm sure that there are an equal number of folks who spent a few nights trying to get it with kiting, until they won by sticking a dk on it and using IBF on all the surges. I've certinately seen videos of DKs tanking it AND kiting each surge, which no one mentions as an option much. Ultimately, if you can consistently make progress, get the win, and get the encounter to one shot status then whatever strategy you are using is a good one.
Corpsicle
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:08 pm

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Threatco » Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:49 pm

I like to kite him for "fun" in 10 man.

But with new people or in general having a dk stand in place using IBF every time as needed is just SO much simpler.

Stack healers under vezax, only need 3 people at ranged drawing his 2 ranged debuffs. Kill saronite as they float by so using them won't make you a target of these attacks. And disc priest = OP on this fight.

Once your doing this, you just have to pray you have a consistant interupter.
Guild Leader of <Oblivion> on Arthas (PvP) US.
Glory of the Icecrown Raider 10 man 03/18/10
Glory of the Ulduar Raider 10 man 08/17/09.
Limitation strictly defined by motivation.
User avatar
Threatco
 
Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:54 am
Location: Moncton, NB

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Spite » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:46 pm

i stationary tank it. Just have two other paladins (i use 2 rets) to alternate with you on every other surge with Divine shield/Divine sacrafice. Hasn't failed me yet.
Spite
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Jasari » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:44 am

Majiben wrote:
Jasari wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:But what do you gain by kiting?


10 seconds of zero DTPS and the option of using available mitigation CDs at other times during the fight rather than only for surges.

Ah but that 0 DTPS is not nearly as valuable as you would think and here's why:

Your healers will still be healing at the beginning and end of the of the surge reducing the time that the healers aren't healing to 7-8 seconds. Additionally dps during the kiting and threat can drop. When looking at the gains this way the gains are rather minimal for the risks.


Well it's really 13 seconds of 0 DTPS since there's a 3 seconds cast and I'm sure the healers are topping me off during that. I can only speak from my own experiencing killing him both with and without kiting him, but for my guild, kiting him has been the far superior strategy. I'm sure that's not the case for all guilds since I fully recognize the benefits to not kiting him.

As for DPS dropping, melee doesn't have to drop at all since they can easily move with him and continue DPS. If ranged is positioned properly they shouldn't have to stop either. My threat drops some, but I've been able to hold threat just fine as long me and a ret paladin use salv intelligently on our boomkin.

And finally, being able to use mitigation CDs at other times can be a big help. In our recent kill we had one disc priest in the raid so even though I was using bubblewall for every other surge we had a PS for times when a couple healers had to go get some mana back or if for any other reason something started going wrong.
User avatar
Jasari
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Threatco » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:50 am

Just thought of something, but would hate to have to test it, if anyone knows that would be great.

Can a paladin healer mitigate damage caused by pools of saronite?

I am thinking something like take 8 stacks and shield wall (50% damage reduction) so you don't get one shot. Would you still get full mana?

Or if you stack up 9+ and bubble, can you get mana back and avoid the damage?
Guild Leader of <Oblivion> on Arthas (PvP) US.
Glory of the Icecrown Raider 10 man 03/18/10
Glory of the Ulduar Raider 10 man 08/17/09.
Limitation strictly defined by motivation.
User avatar
Threatco
 
Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:54 am
Location: Moncton, NB

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Levantine » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:14 pm

Naw, damage reductions don't work anymore afaik. They used to iirc, but then some shadowpriests thought it would be fun to Dispersion soak some (90% damage reduction).
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 10818
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Racolus » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:05 pm

/rant

Warriors are not supreme anymore.

Being a tank class which can block, they are at the lowest among us, with DK proudly stay on the top.

/rant
Racolus
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 5:09 pm

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Levantine » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:17 am

QQ more, betch.

I'm in ur raidz, stealin ur spotz
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 10818
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Racolus » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:39 am

Watch your tone.

I don't why you say it is QQ when even GC admitted that block is not working as our mitigation tool.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/1777949 ... blows.html
Racolus
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 5:09 pm

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Jasari » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:21 am

Racolus wrote:Watch your tone.

I don't why you say it is QQ when even GC admitted that block is not working as our mitigation tool.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/1777949 ... blows.html


Unless you're doing 25man hardmodes the difference is minimal if even noticeable... Also DKs lost a chunk of armor in the last patch so the gap has lessened again. There is a disparity with CDs but word on the street is that it's getting address "soon".

I'd also like to see a DK win the dispel meter on Yoggy :p
User avatar
Jasari
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Are Warriors Still Supreme???

Postby Jedah » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:15 am

no one ever mentions how warrior AoE threat is laughably bad compared to the other 3 tanking classes, and as an end-game warrior tank it is the one thing i truly envy in pallies
Jedah
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:10 am

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest