Judgement overwriting eachother

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby theckhd » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:39 am

Rdx wrote:As for what causes it to drop off and what not you did your testing on Freya Mini bosses, right?

Not just Freya. I kept testing on Mimiron and Vezax as well. I posted some examples from Mimiron in the thread I linked earlier.

In my tests, it was just me and a Holy Paladin using JoWisdom - everyone else was JoLight. I had her macro a /yell to her Judgement, and was testing attack speed every 3 seconds (made macros for HotR and ShoR that included the API script). As I said in the other thread, even on the same boss, I found cases where it did overwrite and cases where it didn't. So I doubt that spec or even mob type has much to do with it. It's probably an environmental effect of some sort - either the timing of the Judgements (i.e. if they're within x seconds of each other), or hitting the debuff limit (maybe it bumps off duplicate debuffs first?), or something like that.

I'd love to do more rigorous testing, but lately I don't even have time to play, let alone test anything. I can share what I'd like to do though, in case anyone else feels like proceeding with it.

1) To test the timing issue, I'd like to try coordinating Judgements so that we can see if the effect has any dependence on the time between the two Judgements. This would be fairly time consuming though, as you'd want to use WWS to determine the time between Judgements, but you'd have to keep track of the attack speed by hand.

2) Testing the debuff limit would be trickier yet. You'd have to get a bunch of friends to put up exactly the right number of debuffs, and then do your Judgement test before any of those debuffs fall off. Long ones like curses and Faerie Fire would be ideal, but you'll probably have to deal with some shorter ones as well to hit the cap.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7806
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Candiru » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:18 am

I thought they increased the debuff limit to something stupid and said that it wouldn't affect things any more?
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby theckhd » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:22 am

Candiru wrote:I thought they increased the debuff limit to something stupid and said that it wouldn't affect things any more?

Looks like you're right. Guess we can rule that out.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7806
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Rdx » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:14 pm

I just dont see any merit to doing this in a raid. What about other talents that could be on the boss. Icy touch for example. As for judgments at the same time, the probability of this is 0, but they may be a range to when this can happen, for example within 1 second of each other server side.
Rdx
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:55 am

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby d503 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:15 pm

The only thing that frustrates me is that when I map Justice to my "do a judgement" button, I generally forget about it...this gets annoying when you end up off-tanking a mob off in the cut, and don't have another else judging wisdom...I eventually have to find myself correcting it when I notice that I'm OOM...

Then, when we're attacking my mob, a Holy comes over and knocks my JotJ off :(

Not to mention if I just say "hai guys I'm doing wisdom, and me only" people get mad when I'm off-tanking a mob that's not the primary target, and no one else has wisdom...

Needless to say, this is annoying and worthless minutia, and Blizzard should probably either clarify the functionality, or make it more reliable... :(
User avatar
d503
 
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:31 pm
Location: Northern California, US

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:48 am

d503 wrote:Needless to say, this is annoying and worthless minutia, and Blizzard should probably either clarify the functionality, or make it more reliable... :(

They just did. In the patch notes, JoLight has changed to be a flat 2% rather than scaling with AP/SP.

So the solution is easy now, since all Judgements are identical. Ret/Holy Judge one thing, Prot judges another. Since my Ret always seems to like Wisdom, I'll probably let him and the Holy do that while I judge Light to guarantee I'm getting the extra healing.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7806
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Solare » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:10 pm

theckhd wrote:They just did. In the patch notes, JoLight has changed to be a flat 2% rather than scaling with AP/SP.

So the solution is easy now, since all Judgements are identical. Ret/Holy Judge one thing, Prot judges another. Since my Ret always seems to like Wisdom, I'll probably let him and the Holy do that while I judge Light to guarantee I'm getting the extra healing.

This is also going to mean that taking 5/5 Divinity for Ret pallies is probably not as attractive anymore, since it increases the healing gained from Judgement of Light. Now that it's a static amount, it's only worth is in Art of War procs that (in PvE, anyway) will more than likely be used on Exorcism rather than Flash of Light.
Image
User avatar
Solare
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:41 pm
Location: Sacramento, California

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Thels » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:13 am

They also seemed to have added a separate debuff for JotJ now, making it even easier.

At least 1 paladin (any paladin) judges light.

At least 1 paladin (any paladin) judges wisdom.

Done!
ImageImage
User avatar
Thels
 
Posts: 1277
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Wolvar » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:23 am

Ret pallies judge Light
Holy pallies judge Wisdom
Prot pallies judge Justice


Justice does nothing, and wisdom won't be on the boss at all times if you have holy pallies judge it. They don't judge as often as prot and ret. I have ret and holy BOTH judge light and prot pallies judge wisdom. That way both judgements are always on the boss and I don't have to worry about JotJ getting overwritten.
Image
Wolvar
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:52 am

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Veilan » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:19 pm

I, too, judge red most of the time in raids to be sure no freak overwrites my judgements of the just. It's the only effect you really need, you're not losing anything since the other guys can keep up blue and yellow.

However, blizz should pick up the ball and make JotJ an extra debuff just like like HotC, applied when you judge. Seriously, I can't fathom how any game designer or gameplay balance person could have overlooked something as glaringly obvious as this.
Ythalaine - Die Aldor EU
Image
User avatar
Veilan
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Makaijin » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:35 pm

Veilan wrote:However, blizz should pick up the ball and make JotJ an extra debuff just like like HotC, applied when you judge.


On the PTR JotJ now it's own debuff HotC style. It currently uses the JoL icon as well but i'm guessing the icon is just a placeholder.
Image
Makaijin
 
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:23 am

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Veilan » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:43 pm

That be good news!
Ythalaine - Die Aldor EU
Image
User avatar
Veilan
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Earantur » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:01 pm

Weighing on the discussion as a Holy Paladin:

I'm normally in melee range anyway for SoW procs, so I usually judge justice. Of course, with judgements proccing SoW in 3.2, this may well change.
Earantur
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:56 am

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Morningrise » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:17 am

Solare wrote:Ret pallies judge Light
Holy pallies judge Wisdom
Prot pallies judge Justice

The more paladins you have, the more important this becomes. And a team of two paladins has the most flexibility in what judgement to use. But as the judgements fly everywhere in a 25-man with 6 paladins, you gotta make sure your particular debuff doesn't get overwritten. Any tankadin worth his salt knows that the 20% attack speed debuff is one of the best mitigation talents in our arsenal. Don't miss out on yours.

If this question is known to exist elsewhere, please let me know. I've been searching for almost an hour here. There's thousands of results when looking for "judge" or "judgement" on these boards. :) My question most likely belongs in Basic but seemed relevant to this thread.

A paladin on my server told me the other day that Ret judges Light because it's AP based. I'm looking at the spell tooltips, and I'm not really seeing this. I thought the personal benefit like DPS or damage done depended on the seal you have up, not what you judge. For example, as a prot paladin, what's the benefit of me judging Justice vs Wisdom vs Light? Assume that I'm using SoV and ignore any of the judge effects (like light=healing, wisdom=mana, justice=slow/prevent running). Would judging one of these do more damage / threat over the other?

As you can see, I'm getting very confused as to the finer details of the Judgement system.

Would this be answering my question? (from the Basic Training sticky)
Q: What do I judge?
A: Boss needs Light and Wisdom judged on it. Light is usually more important. As of 3.2, doesn't matter who judges what.

Pre-3.2, is it still that simple? It doesn't matter who judges what as long as the judgement debuffs get up there for the party/raid?
Image
Morningrise
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:09 am

Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Argali » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:39 am

JoL currently heals based on an AP+SP coefficient.

Out of prot, holy, and ret, ret has the highest AP+SP; so it heals to most if it judges light.

In 3.2, JoL will heal a % of health instead.
Image
User avatar
Argali
 
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:38 am

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest